Johrichal Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 Just wanted to get a few opinions from some people with far more experience than me. So I went to the range the other day to test out the various different loads ive been working on. I was shooting from a bench with a rest and shooting 5 shot test groups. I noticed that just about every 5 shot group I shot had a flyer that was on average about 1.5" off the rest and im sure it has to do with me and not holding perfectly on my POA. So I was wondering what you guys think about using a rail mounted laser sight while shooting from a bench to keep POA more consistent and give a more accurate representation of group sizing. Ive never really used a laser sight before but do have an older streamlight one laying around that I bought years ago and never installed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc90 Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 Interesting thought. Following Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwray Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 If the laser looses its zero you have really screwed up this theory. So why add another variable that could cause you problems. Not being an ass that's just how I see this goingSent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan550 Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 If you're talking semi-auto here your problem could be that the first round that you chamber in the gun is hitting at a different POI from the rest that are chambered by the action. Common phenomena with most semi's. Even when I use a Ransom Rest, I "throw away" the first round in the gun before getting down to the real testing with rounds that were chambered by the gun's action. YMMV Alan~^~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 Shoot larger-populated groups. If 14 rounds go true and 1 is a full two inches off, it's much more likely that it's you. Also, work hard on learning to call your shots. You should know you threw round #3 high and left before the bullet reaches the target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johrichal Posted March 21, 2017 Author Share Posted March 21, 2017 17 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said: Shoot larger-populated groups. If 14 rounds go true and 1 is a full two inches off, it's much more likely that it's you. Also, work hard on learning to call your shots. You should know you threw round #3 high and left before the bullet reaches the target. That was my next step. I was going to shoot 15-20 rnds at 30ft(as far as my local ranges pistol side goes) and also 15-20 on the rifle side of the range at 25yds. 34 minutes ago, Alan550 said: If you're talking semi-auto here your problem could be that the first round that you chamber in the gun is hitting at a different POI from the rest that are chambered by the action. Common phenomena with most semi's. Even when I use a Ransom Rest, I "throw away" the first round in the gun before getting down to the real testing with rounds that were chambered by the gun's action. YMMV Alan~^~ Thats very interesting I had never heard of that before ill have to look into it. Do you have any idea why? 50 minutes ago, mwray said: If the laser looses its zero you have really screwed up this theory. So why add another variable that could cause you problems. Not being an ass that's just how I see this going Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk I believe the laser I have is fixed ill have to take a look at it but i dont think there is any adjustments on it and it fits very tight on the rail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johrichal Posted March 21, 2017 Author Share Posted March 21, 2017 I didnt pay attention to wether or not it was always the same round but next time I definately will. As far as co witnessing the laser to my sights like I said im not sure if thats possible because i dont think there is any adjustment on it but if I hold the laser on my POA the same everytime it shouldnt matter as long as the laser doesnt move. At least thats my theory on it it seems to me as long as my POI is consistent than POI should be as well and where the POI is doesnt really matter to me as I dont plan on actually using a laser sight for any other situation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 4 hours ago, Johrichal said: I didnt pay attention to wether or not it was always the same round but next time I definately will. As others have mentioned above, really not necessary. When I shoot a group, I always fire the first shot into the berm and THEN fire 12-15 shots at the target, very slowly from a solid bench rest. BTW, there is no way you should have a shot 1.5" off center at only 10 yards, unless you're shooting a very small pocket pistol. Even with a first shot being off center. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 The reason many guns throw the first round by a small amount is simply because the gun loads itself very consistently. And not the way you load it manually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lgh Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 10 hours ago, mwray said: If the laser looses its zero you have really screwed up this theory. Ditto. I use anything I can to optimize checking accuracy of new loads but this is the problem. So be sure to have a way to check your zero occasionally. Otherwise you can really end up in a confusing situation with your reloads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 9 hours ago, Johrichal said: I didnt pay attention to wether or not it was always the same round but next time I definately will. As far as co witnessing the laser to my sights like I said im not sure if thats possible because i dont think there is any adjustment on it but if I hold the laser on my POA the same everytime it shouldnt matter as long as the laser doesnt move. At least thats my theory on it it seems to me as long as my POI is consistent than POI should be as well and where the POI is doesnt really matter to me as I dont plan on actually using a laser sight for any other situation I'm curious how a laser could be effective without there being a way to adjust it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johrichal Posted March 21, 2017 Author Share Posted March 21, 2017 I took a look at it this morning and there is an adjustment on it. I just never saw it before because it is an extremely small hex head screw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzt Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 I'm not quibbling with other's comments, but I have never seen the first round off phenomenon. All three of my competition pistols will put all bullets in the same hole at 15 yards. What I have noticed is if I clean the bore, then oil it, i have to shoot at least five rounds before it shoots to POA again. Usually I fire 10 just to be sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 4 hours ago, Johrichal said: there is an adjustment on it. it is an extremely small hex head screw Yup, that's all there is, and all you need Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 4 hours ago, zzt said: I have never seen the first round off phenomenon. if I clean the bore, i have to shoot five rounds before it shoots to POA again. Uh, isn't that the same thing? Except, instead of seeing "the first round phen", you are seeing "the first FIVE round phen" ??? Anyway, seems like a smart idea, if you're shooting for group size/POI, to fire at least one (or ten) into the berm, before recording your hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzt Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 Not the same Jack. Above they were saying it was the difference in the way the round fed into the gun on the first shot that was the difference. If I haven't oiled the bore, all the shots go where the first went. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, Johrichal said: I took a look at it this morning and there is an adjustment on it. I just never saw it before because it is an extremely small hex head screw You really don't need to adjust the laser. All you have to do is make sure that you put the laser on the same POA for each round and let the bullets group where they want. Small group, accurate ammo. Large group, crappy ammo. As long as the laser is secure internally and on the rails, you should be good to go. (unless, of course, you want to use the laser for other shooting) Edited March 21, 2017 by ChuckS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwbsig Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 19 minutes ago, ChuckS said: You really don't need to adjust the laser. All you have to do is make sure that you put the laser on the same POA for each round and let the bullets group where they want. Small group, accurate ammo. Large group, crappy ammo. As long as the laser is secure internally and on the rails, you should be good to go. (unless, of course, you want to use the laser for other shooting) Yeah you right ,I got a good friend that uses a laser just for load work ups and I've borrowed it a couple times for the same thing we usually shoot it at twenty five yards not worried about adjusting it as long as it's on the paper is all that matters for load work ups. Works very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lgh Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 3 hours ago, ChuckS said: You really don't need to adjust the laser. All you have to do is make sure that you put the laser on the same POA for each round and let the bullets group where they want. Small group, accurate ammo. Large group, crappy ammo. As long as the laser is secure internally and on the rails, you should be good to go. (unless, of course, you want to use the laser for other shooting) That's right. The likelihood of the poa changing during a shooting session is low. Really low. You only have to check it once in awhile to be sure the zero is good for personal defense, games, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 12 hours ago, zzt said: the difference the way the round fed into the gun on the first shot that was the difference. If I haven't oiled the bore, all the shots go where the first went. I believe it was Massad Ayoob who first started this whole business of "first shot and the way the round feeds" business about 25 years ago. I've never specifically tested for it, but think I've casually observed it a few times. So, just to be sure, I fire the first shot into the berm, and try not to run the gun dry - keep last round in chamber and insert new mag. Usually when I fire my first shot, it's because I've cleaned the gun first - Guess my next range visit, I'll test for "the first round theory". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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