Set up at local matches

[MemphisMechanic]

To be perfectly honest, I started coming out and setting up specifically because at our club, the first members there start setting up things.

 

1. I was tired of not starting to shoot until noon in 100 degree summers

 

2. I was tired of a port with 4 targets in it... a port with 4 more... until finished. I wanted more variety and some new things. Lots of targets available from all over the stage - meaning lots of options. Unconventional shooting positions. Difficult short courses. Etc.

Edited January 28, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[rowdyb]

Appeal to human kindness? In your shooters meeting instead of threatening to not post scores or not hold the match instead say something like, "The past two matches have been set up by just three of us. We love having a match but we're getting tired. If we can get 8 more people to help set up and all of us to pitch in at tear down then I think we can keep having an awesome match. Thanks and I look forward to seeing you next match"

[Nathanb]

Rowdys right. You can't expect people to help or make people help. When I took on match directorship I knew that it was a thankless job and I knew I'd have a very small number of people who help. We set up for matches the day before and then match day involves stapling targets and setting up steel. I've been known to reduce rate for shooters who show both days to shoot the match. We are trying something new at my club this year. Since we are a private club and have to track work hours I'll be responsible for a group who typically help or just shoot the matches. You want to shoot that's great but they'll need work hours too. And the intent is they'll help where they need to instead of other areas. I'll see if it works

[Trent1k1]

11 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

To be perfectly honest, I started coming out and setting up specifically because at our club, the first members there start setting up things.

 

1. I was tired of not starting to shoot until noon in 100 degree summers

 

2. I was tired of a port with 4 targets in it... a port with 4 more... until finished. I wanted more variety and some new things.

we also mention that during the Shooters Safety brief. 
"If you don't like the stages, get out here early and build one you do like"

[9x45]

This hasn't changed in the 4 decades that I've been competing in IPSC/USPSA. Unless their are paid staff, it's always the same 5-6 shooters who do all the work, until they burn out. When I started the Apple Valley IDPA in 98, we had a dozen like minded shooters who shared all the work. Then we got up to 50 plus (only 3 bays) and nobody was helping. Offered to wave match fees, etc, for a few times, but nothing helped. So we announced that you either help or we won't take your money and find somewhere else to go (for those who  think the match is there just for you, and not that you are there for the match). We quickly went back to 15-18 shooters and it was all good. And a few complained I could't refuse a card carrying member to shoot a sanctioned, true, but I could put limits on the number of shooters. Seems like helpers were always first for signup, duh, because they got there 90 minutes earlier.

[rustychev]

The club I shoot at sets up 10 matches a year with 5 stages per match.  Last year I designed and built 10 stages and helped build a second stage for every stage.  Why is it this way because there are 5 to 7 people that show up every other week to set up and not all of them want to design a stage but are willing to set one up.  The thing that scares me is at 35 I am by 10 or 15 years the youngest guy doing set up.  What happens when the old guys get to old.  I hear people bitch about the stages.  I shoot SS major so I do a lost of 6 6 6 6 6  stages and we have a SS minor guy that shows up and bitches.  When I respond then help build a stage he just walks away.

[Chills1994]

CrashDodson wrote:

 

Our guys seem to be un-motivated about the 15 dollar discount.  Im afraid if we tried to charge more we would push away some.

 

You say that like that would be a bad thing.

[CrashDodson]

Well we are not filling up the match as is.

[Chills1994]

Trent1K1 wrote:

 

Our club in Florida has Tuesday and Friday night matches (4 stages) that start at 630pm as well as a 4th Sunday match that starts at 9:30am....

 

Holy shit, dude!

 

9 matches a month?!

 

If they are all legit bona fide USPSA matches, USPSA HQ is making a shit ton of money off your club in just activity and classifier fees alone.

 

I hope you guys get rewarded with lots of slots to Nationals.

 

[Chills1994]

CrashDodson wrote:

 

Well we are not filling up the match as is.

 

 

Define "filling up".

 

How long does it take to complete the match?

[CrashDodson]

For us right now that would be about 50 shooters.  We have been starting at 10am and finishing by 1 or 2. 

[Chills1994]

Edited....see below

Edited January 30, 2017 by Chills1994

[Chills1994]

Trent1K1 wrote:

 

...13-14 people per squad...

 

This is just my opinion, but that is way too many people per squad.

 

Again, in my opinion, you need to either add stages (bays if you have them).

 

Or jack up the match entry fee to disuade some people from showing up.

[mreed911]

22 minutes ago, Chills1994 said:

Trent1K1 wrote:

 

 

 

 

Holy shit, dude!

 

9 matches a month?!

 

If they are all legit bona fide USPSA matches, USPSA HQ is making a shit ton of money off your club in just activity and classifier fees alone.

 

I hope you guys get rewarded with lots of slots to Nationals.

 

 

If it's the club in Florida I'm thinking of, not all of them are bona-fide USPSA matches.  Some are "true local" or "practice" matches with non-compliant stages to work on specific skills.  VERY fun, good practice "under pressure" and congenial.

[mreed911]

1 minute ago, Chills1994 said:

Trent1K1 wrote:

 

This is just my opinion, but that is way too many people per squad.

 

Again, in my opinion, you need to either add stages (bays if you have them).

 

Or jack up the match entry fee to disuade some people from showing up.

 

I've seen 12 work well as long as folks are pasting, etc. it moves through quickly.  Why turn away money if everyone is happy.

[Chills1994]

CrashDodson wrote:

 

For us right now that would be about 50 shooters.  We have been starting at 10am and finishing by 1 or 2.

 

So people spend 5 to 6 hours at a match to do what...a minute to two minutes of shooting?

 

Let me put this bug in your ear...

 

There is a club near Springfield, IL called Lefthanders.  They set up on Saturday.  Some local guys may shoot on Saturday afternoon.  But I think the majority of people shoot on Sunday.

 

I think this next part is neat.... instead of having dedicated squads and "den mothers" or RO's they let shooters gaggle together with whomever and shoot whatever stage (or bay) is either unoccupied or has the shortest line.

 

People, like electricity, will find the path of least resistance and naturally try to complete the match in the shortest amount of time.

 

And nope, there aren't or weren't any dedicated RO's waiting at each stage.  It was up to the shooters to police themselves.

[waktasz]

I filled in as MD at my club once this past year because the MD was out of town, and so was our regular help.  I posted on the club FB page earlier in the week "trying to get a headcount for setup help on Friday so I know how much pizza and beer to bring"

 

Problem solved. 

[Chills1994]

While I would much rather show people the "carrot" instead of the "stick", there are a few ranges around my area where alcoholic beverages are strictly prohibited.

[mreed911]

4 minutes ago, Chills1994 said:

While I would much rather show people the "carrot" instead of the "stick", there are a few ranges around my area where alcoholic beverages are strictly prohibited.

 

You're being way too literal.

[Chills1994]

I went to a school where the culture was "beatings will continue until morale improves" and "50% of attrition is a job half done", so we mainly got punishment or negative reinforcement as a means to motivate us.  Rarely did we see reward or positive reinforcement dangled in front of us to get us to do anything.

[mreed911]

4 minutes ago, Chills1994 said:

I went to a school where the culture was "beatings will continue until morale improves" and "50% of attrition is a job half done", so we mainly got punishment or negative reinforcement as a means to motivate us.  Rarely did we see reward or positive reinforcement dangled in front of us to get us to do anything.

 

And for a corps of volunteers and/or folks who have no forced or implied commitment to the engagement, how well do you think that approach would work out here?

[CrashDodson]

1 hour ago, Chills1994 said:

CrashDodson wrote:

 

 

 

 

So people spend 5 to 6 hours at a match to do what...a minute to two minutes of shooting?

 

Let me put this bug in your ear...

 

There is a club near Springfield, IL called Lefthanders.  They set up on Saturday.  Some local guys may shoot on Saturday afternoon.  But I think the majority of people shoot on Sunday.

 

I think this next part is neat.... instead of having dedicated squads and "den mothers" or RO's they let shooters gaggle together with whomever and shoot whatever stage (or bay) is either unoccupied or has the shortest line.

 

People, like electricity, will find the path of least resistance and naturally try to complete the match in the shortest amount of time.

 

And nope, there aren't or weren't any dedicated RO's waiting at each stage.  It was up to the shooters to police themselves.

 

I would think you would have people peeling off early and not helping with tear down in this format.

[Trent1k1]

43 minutes ago, Chills1994 said:

Trent1K1 wrote:

 

 

 

 

This is just my opinion, but that is way too many people per squad.

 

Again, in my opinion, you need to either add stages (bays if you have them).

 

Or jack up the match entry fee to disuade some people from showing up.

I totally agree the 13-14 gets to be a bit much.  Especially during our weekly 4 stage matches when people need to get home at a decent time.

 

Adding another stage would not decrease the time of the match, but would decrease the amount of time a shooter had to wait to shoot another stage.

[DanL]

Reality that I have seen the last 11 years is that you need 12-15 per squad just to move it along without running. You have a man on the timer, one keeping score,the shooter and on deck shooter. Usually the previous shooter is still fiddling around loading or cleaning mags. That leaves 7-10 to reset the stage.  And yes I have helped set them up tear them down and usually am one the the people running timer and or keeping score. 

[Chills1994]

mreed911 wrote:

 

Quote

And for a corps of volunteers and/or folks who have no forced or implied commitment to the engagement, how well do you think that approach would work out here?

 

Just to clarify, when I was MD, I think the match fee was normally $20.  For those who helped out, I knocked it down to $6 ($3 for the USPSA HQ fees and $3 for what the state owned range was charging us).

 

So if you help out, it wasn't much of a "reward" but you saved $14.

 

 

And for those who didn't help out, $14 wasn't much of a punishment or penalty for just showing up to shoot and then to leave.  (a.k.a. "IPSC panda").

 

I guess, really, it depends on what the that particular USPSA club's or M.D.'s business model is.

 

At another club, years ago, the rumor was that each MD of whatever sport or match was getting paid $250 for each match they put on.  A place like that I would have no problem, personally, not helping set up and not helping tear down.

 

And yes, these particular MD's got a W-2 or 1099 at the end of the year.

 

Anywhhoooo...I guess what I am really saying is to really entice somebody to help out, the match fee has to be like $40 or more for the normal shooters, and either $3 or nothing for those who help set up.

 

 

EDIT:  other than free food/beer and/or money in the form of reduced match fees, I don't many other ways to positively motivate somebody to help out.

 

In my mind, that only leaves the negative "stick" of forcing people to wait as you set up the morning of the match.  If they want to start shooting sooner, then they better help out.

Edited January 30, 2017 by Chills1994