9mm Limited...could It Work?

[Unleashed]

I have been shooting production for this past year, and with all the concentration on "A" hits, I've been wondering.......

Could a person shoot a limited gun in 9mm (minor) and still be competitive?

We all know the disadvantage of this (fewer points for non-A hits); however, if you look at what people are doing to be competitve in production (shoot all A's), why not apply that in another class? I am not saying that this is not the goal of limited (major) shooters, I am merely stating that they are not as penalized and may push the speed envelope a little more.

But what if you could turn those disadvantages into advantages?

Picture this:

A double stack 9mm with "sight-tracker".....I can only imagine just how fast you could go with this gun, and what is the capacity of a 140mm mag of 9mm? I am not sure, but would venture to guess 25-26.

I guess I am asking the much more experienced on this forum to let me know if this is feasible or just another pipe dream.....I know this isn't an original idea, but with the advent of "sight-tracker" and a production shooter's view of an IPSC target (only the A zone), could it work (or better yet, is it worth the money!!!!)?

Let me know what you think.

Thanks,

Edwin

[Jake Di Vita]

I just want to state that shooting A's is just as important in Limited and Open as it is in Production...there is no "production shooter's" view...that is the view of any skilled shooter.

[rtr]

A 140mm 9mm doublestack mag holds 23 rounds, some may be able to get 24.

I think you'd be better off shooting limited in a major caliber gun (.40 s&w is the most popular).

[ErikW]

Bear1142 did pretty well shooting Minor (by accident) at a nationals. So did Matt Burkett, on purpose.

I understand Julie Goloski is going to give it a whirl in Standard at the World Shoot, where ammo capacity is much more important. So is accuracy.

Having shot a 9mm Limited modular (STI or SV) gun, it's not nearly the advantage one might think. It doesn't seem to flip any less than .40 Major.

This subject has been discussed previously: Search results.

[Loves2Shoot]

Go for it, but remember, there are many times when the A zone is very hard to get, and that is where you will lose a lot of ground to those shooting major.

Typically you will lose about 10%+ of your score if you shoot minor well.

I don't think that I can shoot a minor load 10% faster than a major load.

[Unleashed]

I am not saying that this is not the goal of limited (major) shooters, I am merely stating that they are not as penalized and may push the speed envelope a little more.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess I didn't get my point across the first time....I am not saying that limited shooters are reckless with their shots. I am pointing out the fact that production shooters take a larger penalty when they don't shoot A's. So, if that theory were applied with a platform that could shoot faster (given the customizable weight balance of the pistol as well as a 1911 trigger) is it feasible to be competitive.

[folsoml]

I had a friend fail the chrono at Area 6, so he had to shoot minor, and he still did well. I think the only reason he didn't do better is it got in his head.

[Unleashed]

I understand Julie Goloski is going to give it a whirl in Standard at the World Shoot, where ammo capacity is much more important. So is accuracy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is where I fall into the argument....I started shooting production after a few years of shooting an SV .40 in limited and a single stack in limited 10. I just noticed the accuracy slipping. Shooting minor is more of a tool for me to stay accurate, which I can do, but I guess I needed more incentive. Now when I get a sight picture, I don't accept anything less than the A zone, even on head shots. That is what has me thinking about minor limited. I've shot a few steel matches where I used minor loads in my SV and the splits blew my mind!

Thanks for all the input...I am pretty much hearing what I thought I would.....

"It would be great if you could shoot all A's fast"

Edwin

[shred]

I understand Julie Goloski is going to give it a whirl in Standard at the World Shoot, where ammo capacity is much more important.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

At the WS? With a 5 to 1 ratio of COF's 16 rounds and under? Eeep.

[BritinUSA]

I understand Julie Goloski is going to give it a whirl in Standard at the World Shoot, where ammo capacity is much more important.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

At the WS? With a 5 to 1 ratio of COF's 16 rounds and under? Eeep.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's not a bad idea actually... Women typically have less upper body strength than men. Therefore the difference in muzzle rise for a minor vs major standard gun for women could be significant.

If it's true that she is contemplating this, then you can bet she's made the comparisons and found a potential advantage.

[ErikW]

Also, she's tied to the Glock platform now. It's a very light gun to be shooting .40 Major. Only people like Flexmoney and TDean can handle that.

[Chuck D]

I always thought you could do well using minor p.f. guns in Limited/Standard division. You'll never know unless you try.

By the way...sight tracker technology is only legal in 40 caliber if I'm to believe what USPSA tells me.

[mcoliver]

COF's loaded with swingers, movers, partials and tight shots weigh negatively on you if you shoot minor with it. But I've tried shooting minor in Standard and didn't do too bad. So I guess you can try it, too.

However, I'm starting to believe the fallacy of being able to shoot measurably faster with minor ammo. Minor might make a difference in the initial switch from major. But in the long run, it's about the same, you can shoot major just as fast.

Also, the speed I gain in shooting just cannot make up for the points I drop when I evaluate my overall performance. And I think I know why. It's because our COF's here have more movement than shooting. I can gain more points just trying to be efficient and quick than squeezing out the last bit of my trigger speed.

But as always, YMMV.

[warpspeed]

Mag capacity for a SVI tube with Grams internals & pads is 22 rounds. That is 140 mm per the USPSA guage. Now, you may get lucky or Beven @ Grams Eng. might be able to tune one to get 23 and still be legal but you would need to ask him, but I don't think so.

[Unleashed]

I am starting to see the light....I think I will re-attack with the SV after my tenure with production gets old! I appreciate all the inputs. It's nice to see that we all see alot of the same points on an argument.

[Pierruiggi]

So, if that theory were applied with a platform that could shoot faster (given the customizable weight balance of the pistol as well as a 1911 trigger) is it feasible to be competitive.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

With all due respect to a fellow shooter, I think this theory is not entirely right.

If you can shoot such a gun faster or not is variable, or subjective. Top shooters in Standard and Open shoot very much alike; and I'd venture to say the difference in speed favoring the Open shooters comes from the optics in their guns mostly, with "flat shooting guns" in a lesser plane of importance.

Also, I'd personally try to keep away from "depending" on a technological innovation (sight tracker or whatever) regarding my shooting. It's always the indian, never the arrow. That said, I'd like to have the best arrow available.

I'm with Loves2Shoot and mcoliver on this one.

[diehli]

24 is possible in a 140 legal 9mm mag.

[Skywalker]

To me it's quite simple: it won't work against the top dogs.

Remember: you have to shoot at least 95% of stage available points to have a chance of placing in top standings of each stage. Shooting minor this means more As, way less Cs, no Ds.

Do you think this will let you go faster than a competitor shooting major, who can afford a few more Cs?

I've been doing some comparison on italian major matches: on the same stage, usually, the top Standard shooters are sligtly faster than top Production ones, let's say in the 4/5% neighborhood, when scoring the same total amount of points. And, yes, the comparison stands, because top Production competitors were formerly top Standard ones.

In the long run, assuming the same skill level on both parts and the same points scored in each stage, to me it looks like a competitor shooting minor is giving away some 4/5% in the time department to a competitor shooting major.

[Bear1142]

I did have to shoot minor at the Nationals last year, but I had some mitigating factors that helped in my overall performance. First, I shot two stages and then got to the Chronograph. I was fortunate enough to learn I minored early in the match and I was able to switch my focus around. Shooting major, you accept some level of C's, irrespective of how you got them, for the sake of speed. Shooting minor is all about getting the A. I was able to adjust and shoot some pretty high A counts.

I think there was a time when shooting a 9mm/38super minor limited gun may have been a viable choice, but since the PF has been reduced to 165, there are some pretty soft 40 S&W loads out there and I don't see giving up major point scoring for a marginal reduction in recoil as being a winning setup. Don't get me wrong, I have a 9mm, 5", SV that is an absolute cheater gun. It's incredibly soft and fast, but I don't think I can shoot it fast enough, compared to my 40, to make up the scoring difference. When the PF was 175, well, that was a different story.

Erik

[dirtypool40]

Couple of points, and I apoligize if I am drifting the thread too much.

One of the major advatages of Major in Lim / Stan is to be able to take a chance on speed over points, as in shooting on the move or on partials or swingers, or engaging a long target here rather than run up. On open targets out to 20y, don't ever pull the trigger unless you believe it is an "A". On the rest, make up your mind which is worth more. TJ said that you need to know what you're going to do, shooting on the move, for example, is about 20% faster, so as long as you drop less than 20% of the points, you come out ahead.

Minor, you lose that "aggresiveness option".

Stan / Lim Major is (for me) the best combination of challenges, Open you can be more agressive, sometimes even reckles, and production and or L10 stifle creativity and aggressiveness too much.

I spoke to TGO after one of his now 11 wins at the SSC, and we talked about some things he'd thought about trying, shooting it with a compact / Officers sized gun, or shooting minor, in a super or 9mm. He said that while he felt he could "outrun" it as he put it on open targets, partials and distance would just kill him.

That being said I've seen some good shooters do pretty well shooting minor on purpose. Tim Meanor almost made GM and Joel Dix whips our butts locally when the mood strikes him.

The point Pierruiggi makes is valid. Yes on open, 5-15y targets Standard and Open shooters may shoot a pretty similiar pace. In our class TJ said that on about half the close stages he'd rather have his limited gun. But, make the targets partials and push them out a little further and the dot gun comes into it's own.

You can design stages, hell even an entire match, that would offer little or no advantage to the dot gunners, or you could make things so you NEEDED a dot to be really competitive.

But, I have trouble coming up with a scenario that favors minor where you only get two extra rounds. It would have to be really bad course design of 22 rounds with no place for a reload.

Julie is a good shooter and maybe a G34 with 22-23 rounds will do it for her.

[Mistral404]

I believe the 9mm or minor factor comes into its own when target transitions are important. The lower recoil on the a minor power factor, I believe, is very advantagous when most of the targets are closer together making the target transition times more of a critical success factor. If splits are critical to winning the stage then I think the minor factor is important. However, if there is lot of movement (non-shooting) between targets or arrays then transitions are less important.

I believe TGO once sung the praises of 9mm for practicing.

I remember at Area 4 a couple of years ago, when everyone remarked about how it was an Open gun match. Many far targets with lots of no shoots around. So matches can be designed to favor a Division(s) at the expense of others. We have a guy at our club who is fantastic at setting up stages that favor L10 at the expense of Limited shooters. He typically forces the Limited shooters into a static reload situation. He is quite devious that way.

[sixx]

there's the issue of saving at least 1/3rd of the cost of practice ammo. There's not having to retreive and clean brass and reload. Well worth it to me. I practice with an alloy framed 9mm and it is every bit as "hard" to handle as 170 factor .45 loads in a steel Gov't model. I did all the bullet casting and reloading I could stand. Nowadays, reloading is strictly to get hunting or defensive ammo that I can't get in any other way.

[Dalmas]

We are by law limited to minor (no bullet over 9mm / .357) so I practice like mad to be competitive with a minor gun in standard division. It is possible but the last 3-5% to the top is not possible unless someone makes mistakes.

There are a few advantages with minor - accuracy and mag capacity. With box rule mag I can squeeze 20 rounds (21 in testing) into my mags. But as Dirtypool40 points out the disadvantages far outweigh the ads.

At the Europeans it was a huge disadvantage because the number of partial targets, I predict the same for the WS so I have to find that A zone on partials as fast as major shooter blast 2 Cs... Some challenge...

However I firmly believe that most beginners would benefit from shooting minor even in standard division.

[Unleashed]

I practice with an alloy framed 9mm and it is every bit as "hard" to handle as 170 factor .45 loads in a steel Gov't model. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am not sure how you are replicating the recoil of a full power .45 with an alloy framed 9mm. I shot an alloy framed single stack .45 at the nationals last year and I felt that the pistol was just as controllable as any steel gun. It swung alot better too. I am curious as to how you came to this conclusion, because I am thinking about building more alloy framed guns.

[sixx]

I practice with an alloy framed 9mm and it is every bit as "hard" to handle as 170 factor .45 loads in a steel Gov't model. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am not sure how you are replicating the recoil of a full power .45 with an alloy framed 9mm. I shot an alloy framed single stack .45 at the nationals last year and I felt that the pistol was just as controllable as any steel gun. It swung alot better too. I am curious as to how you came to this conclusion, because I am thinking about building more alloy framed guns.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Simple physics. If a gun is shorter and weighs 2/3rds as much, it has to recoil 50% more. Nobody but you "thinks" alloy frames are as controlable as steel ones, dude, with the same ammo, beyond about 7 yds, in .45. :-)