But, But....how To Go Slower?

[boo radley]

So frustrated -- feel like kicking rocks, after matches.

I know to slow down. I know to collect a good sight picture (when it's needed), and see the front sight lift. I know I need to follow through. I've bought and read BE's book. But, when the buzzer goes off, I lose my rational brain, and hurry. Sometimes, I'll even see the front sight out of alignment, and STILL pull the trigger.

The thing is, it's not like I'm all that fast, anyway....I tend to be significantly quicker than the folks I've started shooting local "IDPA-style" stuff with, and that serves to put me near the top, but I'm pissing-away a TON of points in -3's and the odd no-shoot.

But in IPSC, while I've only shot two 'official' matches, so far, my times are so far away from those of better, experienced shooters, it's not even funny, which is why it's super infuriating to have stages where I'm shooting 60% of the points.

How do y'all conquer this, or at least tame it? Did you have an "ah-ha" experience, where you shot slowly but smoothly, and Lo!, you won the match?

Did you resolve to deliberately stall a match or two? Or, did some of you just get better at shooting on the edge? <sigh>

[XRe]

Sounds like what's going on here is not a "speed" problem, but a discipline problem. You're just pulling the trigger whenever, instead of letting your body shoot the gun based on what you see. You've kind of got it backwards

I had this problem at one point, when I was working on speeding things up - I had been shooting really accurately, but wasn't really being efficient about my time. In trying to address that, I ended up just hosing away and not hitting much... To fix it, I had to trust that I could perform the mechanics as quickly as I needed to, and then focus on *seeing* the sight picture before the gun goes off. Amazingly (to me, at the time), I started hitting the crap out of stuff, and I *knew* when I didn't hit and could make the shot up quickly. Throw time out of your mind - focus on seeing the sight picture.

Also, as a newer shooter to this kind of game, I'd suggest throwing all notion of the different sight picture types that Brian talks about out the window for the time being. You'll note that he mentions that those are the things he's aware of seeing, not what he tries to see - it took me some experience to understand the difference, there.

Live and dry fire practice will help this - focus on accurate shooting. Shoot groups at long range, shoot Bill Drills at long range (and only count runs that have all A zone hits), shoot "called shot" drills, where you fire one or more rounds at long range, and then try to call where the shot hit before checking the target (high-left A-zone, or D-zone, straight down, or...). These things will all be slow - but they'll get you back on the target.

Let your sight shoot the gun... I know that sounds esoteric, but... the drills above will help you understand that feel, and it'll make more sense then....

HTH, anyhow

[Flexmoney]

Sounds like you have a focus on winning.

And, that you believe that going fast is what you need to do.

Change the way you think, or expect more of the same.

[spook]

Make shooting only A's your goal in practice and matches. BTW, shooting all A's doesn't mean you have to slow down, you just have to shoot all A's

[Loves2Shoot]

Ditto to the above.

Find a distinguishing mark on your front sight and make sure you see it. If I need to see a shot really well I make myself see the serations. Being lazy is the biggest reason people shoot bad shots.

Remember, there is no slow or fast, only efficient and non-efficient.

[BSeevers]

But in IPSC, while I've only shot two 'official' matches, so far, my times are so far away from those of better, experienced shooters, it's not even funny, which is why it's super infuriating to have stages where I'm shooting 60% of the points.

<sigh>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are shooting against some of the best pistol shooters around. I think you will also see they are shooting 90%+ of points and quite a bit faster.

If you want to shoot like them practice, repeat.

You don't get to see the thousands of rds they practice with or the 100K dry fires.

[GRD]

I find visualization helps me calm down. Really imagining the sights on the target as you need them to look and imagining pulling the trigger in response to that sight picture. I made a big step recently towards chilling out by making sure the visualization included that sight picture and wasn't just 'bang bang bang bang' in cadence. Got to make that sight picture (or whatever you need re: alignment on that shot) be the thing that drives your trigger finger. If you're not doing that (waiting for it) in your pre-stage visualization, you're not preparing to do it on the stage.

Maybe that will help?

- Gabe

PS: I like Flex's advice on your goal. And I agree - it sounds like your goal is to win that stage right there and it ain't going to happen just by wanting it on match day. Like TGO says in the preface to Brian's book: you can only do what you've prepared to do. Or something like that.

PPS: You're also going to have to stop comparing yourself to the winning shooters. It may all look easy, but as you're finding out, getting all 3 corners of that DVC triangle to work out at the same time is no small feat.

[short_round]

shooting all A's doesn't mean you have to slow down, you just have to shoot all A's

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Every shot takes as long as it takes, no more no less. Trying to go faster or slower will just upset your rhythm and cause you wasted movement. Efficiency is a key, try to find and achieve your balance. The more practice/experience you get the time it takes for each shot gets lower.

But, when the buzzer goes off, I lose my rational brain

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's okay to lose your rational brain when the buzzer goes off. In fact this is what I try for. When I do it right and this happens my body really needs to be running the program that I setup during the walk through and not just some random thing or I'll be in trouble.

So frustrated -- feel like kicking rocks, after matches.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sometimes, me too ... I try to remember that this is supposed to be fun

[Jake Di Vita]

Do NOT slow down....all you need is to see faster.

There is no cure-all answer anyone can give you. You know what you need to do...do it.

[boo radley]

Thx, all of you. I am reading and re-reading all of your replies carefully.

I think XRE summed up the exact issue: it's a discipline problem, and a it's also, as Flex$ points out, a faith problem: I don't really believe yet that I don't have to rush, and that I can ignore that screaming voice in my head shouting, GO GO GO!! I know logically shooting A's and callig shots makes sense, but in my soul, I just don't have the trust.

That's the heart of it, I think. The other stuff -- comparison, etc., I need to find my way through, and it's a problem, but not critical. The difference between local club/range-type matches, and even good IDPA shooters, and IPSC, is incredible, from what I've seen so far, but I still go into each stage wanting to burn it down, and leave usually wanting to burn it down with a match.

Thx, y'all.

[XRe]

I still go into each stage wanting to burn it down, and leave usually wanting to burn it down with a match. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If the stage has steel on it, make sure to grab a can of that spray paint. Flamethrowers are cool

Keep that fire (pun intended) and couple it with a will to insure you get your hits. You'll get there in no time

One other thought - I used to get really frustrated when I wasn't beating people, and moving up the ranks from match to match. And a stage "loss" would trigger that a lot, too. I changed my goal to shooting each stage as well as I could that day - this resulted in better hits, better times, better match results, and moving up the order of finish. Tanigble goals I can control seem to be key for me. Intangible ("shoot fast") or uncontrollable ("must win") goals don't seem to work well for me

[sixx]

I"d see an optometrist, if I were you, and have him make you 2-3 pairs of shooing glasses,with different ranges of focus. I'd also start using electronic muffs, so you aren't wondering "was that the beep"? I'd get a dovetail front sight, and I'd experiment with different widths and heights of front sight. All this is more for the shooter over age 40 than for the young bucks. I used to aim as fast as I could point. Then I discovered that aiming was costing me .25 second, until I got a new pair of glasses.

[boo radley]

I"d see an optometrist, if I were you, and have him make you 2-3 pairs of shooing glasses,with different ranges of focus.  I'd also start using electronic muffs...

Ah! The fix the problem with money, approach. Nah, my eyes are fine, reasonably @ age 40, I don't need to spend another $ on guns, or accessories, (except maybe for a timer...oh yeah, and a different holster, and...). I also hear the beep just fine, despite conventional muffs.

I've thought about this a little more, and have arrived at a fact that I do believe with my heart: I cannot keep shooting as poorly as I am shooting in a match, and expect any kind of success.

[kevin c]

The irony is that, when you stop worrying about the success, when you stop trying for the speed, you will shoot much better.

I'm told (haven't gotten to that level yet ) that, when you're on, your best times will not seem fast to you as you shoot.

[Dalmas]

Boo!

Some good tips here. I had the same dilemma. I've been moving well and producing some good times but giving away too many points. I'm limited to minor (stupid lawmakers) so my only way of being competetive in a more and more major favoured sport I have to shoot max points (more so than major guys) while not giving up time.

After loosing the first match of the year due to this sloppiness I sat down and redid my mental plan and started to force myself in practice and match to only shoot the A-zone. It's extermely hard to change the rythm you have built up but with willpower it's possible. Then trow in a couple of results where you have scored 90+% of the possible points and you'll see that it's the only way forward. It will feel slow to see the a-zon on all shots but it is not..

I have still not won my first match of the year but Im fortunate to be up against the two of Europes best standard shooters everytime I competet, however my percentage is getting better.

[benos]

For two reasons, clear, continuous seeing is the heart of speed in IPSC shooting. When you see "enough" to know the shot hit the target at the instant the shot fired, only then will you move decisively to the next target. And, when you see the sights returning from recoil, back to the target, you will shoot the next shot at the earliest opportunity.

be

[EricW]

Three years ago I would have agreed that slowing down makes you shoot faster. Now, I'm firmly in the camp that slowing down only makes you shoot slower.

Paying attention to what's going on in front of you is what makes the process go faster. That may be fast or slow all depending on how prepared you were before you stepped to the line.

[eerw]

Now, I'm firmly in the camp that slowing down only makes you shoot slower. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

EricW....well said..

slowing down..just makes you slow...

you pull the trigger when you see what you need to see..you go the speed your front sight (dot ) lets you...anything else and you are just making noise..

When I first started shooting..it was just a thrill, a big adrenalin dump..my mind was saying go fast...look -- you are running with guns..it was the best...and for awhile you may be reasonably successful... but sooner or later..you will figure out that you also need to shoot points, you need to not hit the white ones or the black ones..

aha...this is when you say..I gotta practice...but practice what..do i try to shoot accurately fast...or do I practice shooting fast accurately..or do I...ahhh the noise in my head.

figure you know how to pull the trigger..and you say you can do it reasonably quickly...great...now go practice seeing your sight...

set up drills..far and close, partials-wide open targets..shoot for a goal of all A's. see what you need to see to shoot these A's..record that!!!!!

want some pressure..take a friend..record times and points..bet lunch..bet a pound of powder, bet some primers..

keep working on this and other drills that people will talk about..and one day at a match.... "click" someone hit the switch... this all makes sense..this is what its like.. woo hoo...

then guess what... you start all over again..

gawd..I love this sport....

[jnshapiro]

One more thought, as I had a similar problem. Do you practice on a plate rack or with targets the same size, distance apart, and elevation? If so you could be conditioning yourself to shoot when it's time to pull the trigger and not when you sights are on target.

There is no faster or slower, only the speed at which you have sight acquisition on target.

Joel

[iweiny]

Well I don't know for you but what I did when I started (just a few months ago) was I had a running "soundtrack" of "sight picture -- squeeze trigger" in my head. Every shot I could remember myself think that. And I think pretty much every shot I was treating like a 25 yard "perfect sight picture" shot. I was slow but not the slowest.

Over the past few matches I have found I don't "think" that anymore but I think I still do it subcontiously. I would just add to one thing which BE said "when you see the sights returning from recoil, back to the target, you will shoot the next shot at the earliest opportunity". When I shoot I know I am not good enough to have a great "natural point of aim" but if you concentrate on aligning the sights and as BE has said here in other threads being visualy patient to allow yourself to "wait for it" it might come easier.

That might have been what I was doing all along but to me it was simply "get sight picture -- sqeeze trigger" short, simple?

Like "steal underpants, make profit"![1] I like to simplify things.

Anyway, for the most part I get my points...

I hope this helps,

Ira

[1] South Park reference...

[benos]

Three years ago I would have agreed that slowing down makes you shoot faster.  Now, I'm firmly in the camp that slowing down only makes you shoot slower. 

Paying attention to what's going on in front of you is what makes the process go faster. 

I agree - only tell yourself to slow down if you want to shoot slower. Just take the time to see what you know you need to see to call each shot - that's a better plan. Not easy to do though - since you can "go as fast as you can," the natural tendency is to rush.

It's amazing how good your shots will be, overall, if you just allow yourself time to see what you need to in order to know if each shot hit the target (as it fired). Of course, you'll shoot the occasional make up shot based on your call. But in general, you shoot consistently better by just allowing the time necessary to call each shot. I think it's because you have already established the "will" to hit each target as quickly as possible. After a certain amount of training, your body will do that if you let it.

be

[BritinUSA]

You could try going to the line with only enough rounds to shoot the stage, 20 round course ? Go to the line with only 20 rounds.

That will make you aim

[Jake Di Vita]

I wouldn't go to the line with only 20 rounds...but I would challenge myself to not shoot any extra shots.

Also bet lunch or something with a buddy on who can shoot the most A's for the match.

Remember that control is what wins matches. You must be in control of EVERY shot that you fire. If you can't do that, all the speed in the world is useless.

[Ben Stoeger]

It still looks cool to go to the line and shoot like crazy, even if you dont get good hits.

[boo radley]

Hmm...it's been about 2 months since I first posted this question, but it feels like 2 years.

I'm a tad wiser, and after a really rough period of rock-bottom match performances, a slightly better shooter.

I shot a personal-best stage recently, that was so fast (for me) and 100% clean, that I'm still a little awed when I think about it. My mind was completely empty, and since it was close (7y) I just saw the "A's" in the targets like a laser -- didn't even see the pistol, much less the sights -- it was like a sip from the fountain of Pure Index.

But in all seriousness, for sure I was *trying* to go fast, since I hadn't shot any other stage particularly well, and I wanted to beat the times of other shooters before me, and didn't mind going for broke. So what kind of lesson is this, to myself? I'm not sure a good one.

Still, I'm getting better and more relaxed in general, and shooting a lot more A's and even had a match where I hit no D's, and no No-Shoot's, which is a huge accomplishment for me.

If I had to identify a core problem I'm still wrestling with, surrounding this issue, it's still one of control -- from time to time I'll be shooting, seeing what I need to see in the front sights, then I'll see something poor, and still shoot anyway. I'm concerned that I'm not conquering this problem as much as improving my index and physical technique with practice and experience, so while the sights are still not aligned, and I still *shouldn't* be shooting, the results aren't as bad as they once were.