Fixed time comstock stage

[Sandbagger123]

i have always been told that fixed time is always virgina count. we had a fixed time comstock stage yesterday. is there such a thing as fixed time comstock?

[dynamicalflinch]

Fixed Time courses are NEVER Virginia Count. Virginia Count, Comstock, and Fixed Time are all separate scoring methods listed in the rule book.

[waktasz]

9.2.4 “Fixed Time” – Limited time, limited number of shots to be fired,

stipulated number of hits per target to count for score.

[Sandbagger123]

9.4.5

9.4.5 In a Virginia Count Course of Fire or a Fixed Time Course of Fire: 9.4.5.1 Extra shots (i.e. shots fired in excess of the number specified in a component string or stage), will each incur one procedural penalty. Additionally, during scoring, no more than the specified number and highest scoring hits will be awarded. 9.4.5.2 Extra hits (i.e. hits on the scoring area of scoring paper targets in excess of the total number specified in the stage), will each incur one procedural penalty. Note that hits on hard cover and/or no-shoots are not treated as Extra Hits. 9.4.5.2.1On a course of fire using a common firing line (see Rule 2.1.7), a competitor may not be credited or penalized for any scoring or penalty hit(s) which can reasonably be determined by the Range Officer (by caliber, grease mark, or angle of hit) to have been fired by an adjacent competitor. 9.4.5.3 Stacked shots (i.e. obviously shooting more than the required rounds on a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots than specified in any string), will incur one procedural penalty per target insufficiently engaged in any string. This penalty will not be applied if the written stage briefing specifically authorizes stacked shots.

[JayWord]

9.4.5

9.4.5 In a Virginia Count Course of Fire or a Fixed Time Course of Fire: 9.4.5.1 Extra shots (i.e. shots fired in excess of the number specified in a component string or stage), will each incur one procedural penalty. Additionally, during scoring, no more than the specified number and highest scoring hits will be awarded. 9.4.5.2 Extra hits (i.e. hits on the scoring area of scoring paper targets in excess of the total number specified in the stage), will each incur one procedural penalty. Note that hits on hard cover and/or no-shoots are not treated as Extra Hits. 9.4.5.2.1On a course of fire using a common firing line (see Rule 2.1.7), a competitor may not be credited or penalized for any scoring or penalty hit(s) which can reasonably be determined by the Range Officer (by caliber, grease mark, or angle of hit) to have been fired by an adjacent competitor. 9.4.5.3 Stacked shots (i.e. obviously shooting more than the required rounds on a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots than specified in any string), will incur one procedural penalty per target insufficiently engaged in any string. This penalty will not be applied if the written stage briefing specifically authorizes stacked shots.

i have always been told that fixed time is always virgina count. we had a fixed time comstock stage yesterday. is there such a thing as fixed time comstock?

There can be no such thing as a fixed time comstock stage in handgun. Just like you cannot have steel in any stage that is scored Virginia count or fixed time. BTW: When I started shooting "Virginia count" was called limited comstock by some older shooters. It changed in the 1986 rulebook because it was confusing.

Multi-gun has limited time comstock for long range stages to limit the amount of time.

What was the stage. It is not a valid USPSA stage.

[StealthyBlagga]

You could do it with a visual start (targets appearing) and all targets disappearing after a programmed amount of time. The shooter starts when they see the targets appear, and fires as many rounds as they wish. Would be a really cool stage concept actually, but likely would require automated turning targets for consistency. Of course, miss penalties would not apply.

Edited July 21, 2016 by StealthyBlagga

[JayWord]

You could do it with a visual start (targets appearing) and all targets disappearing after a programmed amount of time. The shooter starts when they see the targets appear, and fires as many rounds as they wish. Would be a really cool stage concept actually, but likely would require automated turning targets for consistency. Of course, miss penalties would not apply.

Hmm,

Many years ago I did a stage similar to this with Gravity turners. If you do the math, a very good draw and shoot 2-A and quit shooting since missed do not count due to a disappearing target. 1 second draw 10 points= comstock around 10. Depending on the number of targets and their sequence it may be to your advantage to not shoot at any other targets.

Jay

[shred]

A long time ago the wacky folks at Coleman and San Angelo put together what could well be the best fixed-time stage ever.

They built a roller-coaster track sideways across a long sloping berm.

The shooter sat in a little boxcar with an open port downrange, riding on said track.

When ready, release the brake and shoot the targets as they increasingly fly past the window.

At the other end of the track the cart crashes somewhat controlledly to a stop. Score is what points you hit.

The targets were unavailable from the stop, so disappearing. The time was fixed at the time it took the cart to get from the start to the end.

Subsequently the rules were changed, limiting fixed time to short courses and standards which prevent this much fun from being possible now.

[StealthyBlagga]

You could do it with a visual start (targets appearing) and all targets disappearing after a programmed amount of time. The shooter starts when they see the targets appear, and fires as many rounds as they wish. Would be a really cool stage concept actually, but likely would require automated turning targets for consistency. Of course, miss penalties would not apply.

Hmm,

Many years ago I did a stage similar to this with Gravity turners. If you do the math, a very good draw and shoot 2-A and quit shooting since missed do not count due to a disappearing target. 1 second draw 10 points= comstock around 10. Depending on the number of targets and their sequence it may be to your advantage to not shoot at any other targets.

Jay

Indeed - the devil is in the detail as always.

[MikeBurgess]

A long time ago the wacky folks at Coleman and San Angelo put together what could well be the best fixed-time stage ever.

They built a roller-coaster track sideways across a long sloping berm.

The shooter sat in a little boxcar with an open port downrange, riding on said track.

When ready, release the brake and shoot the targets as they increasingly fly past the window.

At the other end of the track the cart crashes somewhat controlledly to a stop. Score is what points you hit.

The targets were unavailable from the stop, so disappearing. The time was fixed at the time it took the cart to get from the start to the end.

Subsequently the rules were changed, limiting fixed time to short courses and standards which prevent this much fun from being possible now.

I think you could still do something like that, you would just need to make at least one target available from the stop position so they have to shoot it because it is doesn't disappear, that way if a gamer tries to game it and not shoot at most of the disappearing targets then they still get the time it took to get to the end. heck you could even rig a target to appear some time after the cart stops

[JAFO]

Wouldn't the cart roll at different speeds for different shooters (e.g., a 250 lb adult vs a 90 lb junior)?

[Thomas H]

Wouldn't the cart roll at different speeds for different shooters (e.g., a 250 lb adult vs a 90 lb junior)?

Gravity works the same for every one.

[JAFO]

Wouldn't the cart roll at different speeds for different shooters (e.g., a 250 lb adult vs a 90 lb junior)?

Gravity works the same for every one.

But not friction.

[peterthefish]

Wouldn't the cart roll at different speeds for different shooters (e.g., a 250 lb adult vs a 90 lb junior)?

Gravity works the same for every one.

But not friction.

Rolling friction coefficients for hard wheels on track are so low weight is for all intents and purposes negligible.

[skeeter]

You could do it with a visual start (targets appearing) and all targets disappearing after a programmed amount of time. The shooter starts when they see the targets appear, and fires as many rounds as they wish. Would be a really cool stage concept actually, but likely would require automated turning targets for consistency. Of course, miss penalties would not apply.

Hmm,

Many years ago I did a stage similar to this with Gravity turners. If you do the math, a very good draw and shoot 2-A and quit shooting since missed do not count due to a disappearing target. 1 second draw 10 points= comstock around 10. Depending on the number of targets and their sequence it may be to your advantage to not shoot at any other targets.

Jay

Jay would that stage be from the 1996 Area 5 match? i remember having a good run shooting it the way you designed it, only to have it pulled when they gamers found a better way

[Thomas H]

Wouldn't the cart roll at different speeds for different shooters (e.g., a 250 lb adult vs a 90 lb junior)?

Gravity works the same for every one.

But not friction.

Rolling friction coefficients for hard wheels on track are so low weight is for all intents and purposes negligible.

Yup. Add oil before each squad and it would shock me if you ever could measure any difference between any two people (of any type and weight) to closer than the error of the person running the stopwatch trying to time them.

[teros135]

It would be pretty easy to test. Run the cart with a small person, then run it with a large person. If you can't tell the difference, you're okay.

[shred]

There's no Hit-Factoring in Fixed Time so actual run-time is largely irrelevant.

As for the 'shooting challenge', as long as the stage runs relatively equitably, it's the same argument that we don't fine-tune every stage so the shooting difficulty is identical for tall/short fat/thin shooters and so on (see: swinging bridges, low ports, high ports, hang-ropes, dummy-carries, etc)

In this particular case shooter weight didn't seem to matter much if any. The cart weight was a significant fraction of the total.

[JayWord]

You could do it with a visual start (targets appearing) and all targets disappearing after a programmed amount of time. The shooter starts when they see the targets appear, and fires as many rounds as they wish. Would be a really cool stage concept actually, but likely would require automated turning targets for consistency. Of course, miss penalties would not apply.

Hmm,

Many years ago I did a stage similar to this with Gravity turners. If you do the math, a very good draw and shoot 2-A and quit shooting since missed do not count due to a disappearing target. 1 second draw 10 points= comstock around 10. Depending on the number of targets and their sequence it may be to your advantage to not shoot at any other targets.

Jay

Jay would that stage be from the 1996 Area 5 match? i remember having a good run shooting it the way you designed it, only to have it pulled when they gamers found a better way

Yep. At the end of Saturday the stage leader was a GM and the second place shooter was a C class shooter who screwed it up. Tossed due to lack of competitive equity, and bad acting.

Edited July 29, 2016 by JayWord

[skeeter]

You could do it with a visual start (targets appearing) and all targets disappearing after a programmed amount of time. The shooter starts when they see the targets appear, and fires as many rounds as they wish. Would be a really cool stage concept actually, but likely would require automated turning targets for consistency. Of course, miss penalties would not apply.

Hmm,

Many years ago I did a stage similar to this with Gravity turners. If you do the math, a very good draw and shoot 2-A and quit shooting since missed do not count due to a disappearing target. 1 second draw 10 points= comstock around 10. Depending on the number of targets and their sequence it may be to your advantage to not shoot at any other targets.

Jay

Jay would that stage be from the 1996 Area 5 match? i remember having a good run shooting it the way you designed it, only to have it pulled when they gamers found a better way

Yep. At the end of Saturday the stage leader was a GM and the second place shooter was a C class shooter who screwed it up. Tossed due to lack of competitive equity, and bad acting.

yep what a great match. my first area match and i got to swing from a parachute while engaging targets, shoot on the same squad as Jerry Barnhart and won my class. i even meet a guy named Brian Enos who seemed like a pretty good shooter

[Paul B]

Since we are reminiscing, one of the most fun stages I ever shot was at a local match in Richmond, Indiana several (maybe more) years ago. The stage was set up as a jungle course on the "back 40" of the range. It was heavily wooded with a very rutted, winding road running through it.

The shooter was in the back of a pickup truck on a seat bolted to the bed with plywood blinders on 3 sides leaving only the back open. It was at least 40 shots as I remember reloading at least 3 times mainly to be sure I could engage all the targets The course was a surprise and it really was because even shooters that had been through it could not remember where the targets were to tell those who followed. The pickup ran at a fixed speed of only 3-5 miles/hour in the ruts of the road and the course was about 200 yards long.

The targets came into view at random intervals with one here and 3 there. You did not want to be caught low on ammo as a reload lost you an array. It took constant attention as some targets were partially obscured and you had to shoot as fast as you could.

At the end I remember a big smile on my face and I do not even remember my score. I suppose there are a lot of current rules broken by this stage but I also suspect it could probably be modified to fit current rules. I doubt it would ever be as much fun.

Edited August 1, 2016 by Paul B