High Dollar Classes

[MANDOWN75]

I've been looking into attending a two or three day classes offered by some of the Big name shooters. Most of the classes cost in upwards of 400 plus dollars for a two day class.  And for a three day class I've seen them for 6 to 7 hundred dollars.  Has anyone gone to this type training.  Is it really worth spending close to a thousand dollars including ammo for a three day class.  Or can you get the same instruction from some of the video tapes that are out there?  

[EricW]

Don't this in the wrong vein.  But, you've got to look at cost/benefit.  Let's say your shooting budget is $100/month.  If taking a $400 class helps cut out 6 months of floundering and wasting $600 in unfocused shooting, was it worth it?  Only you know where you're at, but that's the kind of decision you have to make.  

As far as the "expense."  Yeah, it *seems* expensive, but compare shooting classes to any other (non-cattle herd) type of professional traning and $400 is hideously cheap.  I've spent $750-1000 per *day* for professional software training courses.  I've sat in college classrooms and spent $200 to listen to liberals drone on about nothing for 45 minutes.  (The other 15 minutes I spent restraining myself from killing some snotty rich kid who decided to start whistling La Marseillaise.)

In fact, I've flat walked out of several classes that cost more, just because they were wasting my time.

Shooting courses are a comparative bargain and actually fun and educational.  Think of it as an investment in yourself.

E

[tightloop]

There are several factors to take into account.

1.  Where are you in your shooting ability

2.  What are your expectations, performance vs time span

3.  Who is teaching the class

4.  How many other students are there

5.  Cost

You may have read here that many of us keep a shooting journal.  Well in that journal at the very top of the first page are my short term (6 month) and long term (1 year) goals.  If my method has not produced the desired goal, then it is probably worth it, but if I am achieving my set goals with my methods then it would be worth a phone call to discuss your individual situation with the one giving the class to see what their take on yur performance after the  class would be.  Just like it was said B4 me, it is a cost/benefit decision.

[bountyhunter]

I think some of the classes may be good, some not.  There is a giant pissing contest going on at another forum because some of the members went to a place called Front Sight in Nevada and were very unsatisfied.  The trouble was, they posted their misgivings on the forum and Front Sight threatened to sue the owner of the Forum if he didn't remove all unflattering posts.  I guess they think somebody turned this country into Nazi Germany, last time I checked free speech was still legal?

[EricW]

OK, let's leave the urban commando schools out of this discussion if we can.  If we're talking about the Robbies, Brians, TJ, Matts, et. al., I think 95+% of shooters would benefit substantially from a class.

E

[Ron Ankeny]

I took a two day IPSC class from Ron Avery. There were 15 students involved ranging in abiity from D to M class. I received very little individual attention or one on one instruction...because I didn't need it as much as the other guys.

As a result of the class I changed my stance just a bit. I came away with a deeper understanding of the fundamentals, a whole raft of exercises to do to work on various aspects of the game, and a plan for improvement. I learned a lot. It was worth the money.

If I had it to do over, I would pay twice the money for twice the time and look for a smaller class.

[Al Capizzo]

I know I've brought this up when this topic has come up in the past.

If you are serious about improving, and if you are disciplined enough to work on the things you are shown in a class, they are definitely worth the money.

TJ has taught several times in my area, and the shooters who did what he said have improved greatly, those who thought they'd learn by osmosis rather than effort thew their money away.

Al

[38supPat]

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Quote: from MANDOWN75 on 9:29 am on Nov. 8, 2002

I've been looking into attending a two or three day classes offered by some of the Big name shooters. Most of the classes cost in upwards of 400 plus dollars for a two day class.  And for a three day class I've seen them for 6 to 7 hundred dollars.  Has anyone gone to this type training.  Is it really worth spending close to a thousand dollars including ammo for a three day class.  Or can you get the same instruction from some of the video tapes that are out there?  

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This is a tough one to answer, mostly because it depends very much on your attitude going into the course.

Are you there to learn?

Are you prepared to hear that everything in your current technique is bad and you may have to start from scratch?

Or are you taking it just to meet Rob, Todd, or Jerry?

Can your ego handle making a big mistake in front of one of the top shooters? Will you learn from it?

I have taken courses put on by Matt McClearn and Todd Jarrett, gotten pointers from Matt Burkett and sat in on a course by Todd at his invitation. I each case I came away with something new to work on. And learned from it.

Notice I said "I came away with something new to WORK on" If you go in thinking that merely taking the course will bump you up a class, you'll be wasting your money. Two or even three days is a very tight time limit to not only pass information along to the students but also allow them to shoot enough to come off the course a substantially better shooter. You have to practice what was taught for days and weeks afterwards in order to ingrain the lessons/techniques and then to decide if they work for you. Make no mistake, not everything you are taught may work for you. You have to figure that out for yourself.

Are you self aware? Do you pay attention to what you are doing as you are doing it? I have seen shooters on some of the courses I have attended or taught that convinced themselves that they had changed their technique, when in fact no change was made.

The courses are definitly worth it, but you must go in with a clear mind, be prepared to forget what you 'know', and work hard at it after the course is done.

Small anecdote: A couple of years ago, after finishing Todds course, I stayed at the safety table and continued to dry fire, working on a couple of specific things Todd had shown me, most of which are still part of my current technique. Where were the rest of the guys from the course? Well, they were in the club lounge getting Todds autograph. I was close enough to overhear the conversation. One of the other attendees asked where I was, 'cuz I might miss out on getting a signed picture of Todd. another answered that I was still in dryfiring. They all then started to laugh, after all they were getting Todds AUTOGRAPH while I was too busy doing table draws, working on my grip and draw technique and reloads. Todd then proceded to shut them down, I don't remember his exact words but he basically told them that I had alot of talent and that since I was willing to work at it, I was going to go pretty far in the sport. Needless to say the laughter quickly subsided. The point  was that Todd new I listened to what he had to say and I was willing to give it an honest effort and work at it...hard. Are you ?

[Steve Moneypenny]

Like everyone said above, anything, a book, video, or class, is only what you make of it.

What I have to add.  

Yes, the info is on the video's, but its much more abstract, you have no way to see it then ask a question about it, AND most importantly you don't have highly trained eyes to see what your doing wrong that you can see. In my opinion, it is WELL worth the money

Steve

[ErikW]

The first class I took was from Mike Voigt, two days of basic/intermediate practical shooting fundamentals and techniques. I was a C class shooter and I learned a whole lot, and had a revelation about my ability to shoot accurately. I stayed in C class.

The second class I took was from Mike Voigt, two days of intermediate/advanced techniques and stage strategy. I didn't feel like I learned a whole lot more than the first class, just reinforced a few things and picked up a few things. I went from C to Master in a year.

The third class I took was from Bennie Cooley, two days of rifle instruction. I picked up a lot of good stuff, but I don't think I'll be running with him or kellyn on the rifle stages of 3 gun matches just yet. He obviously has a lot more to teach than he can in two days. He identified a basic shooting problem I had; fixing it will help me in my pistol matches. (Same problem benos identified via these forums!)

$300 or $400 isn't a whole lot of moola. It costs significantly more to travel to a big match. If you are stuck in a groove, you need to take a class. If you are advancing too slowly, you need to take a class.

The book is great, the videos are great, but you need that GM to identify your mistakes and tell you how to correct them.

[shred]

Agreed on the benefit of classes-- 5 seconds of observation by any of the top guys can save you weeks of work.

BUT.. don't go into a class thinking you'll be kicking major butt the next weekend-- In my experience, I've got so much to think about that my shooting level goes down until the class lessons are ingrained.  Todd even says he doesn't want to see you in his class again for another 6 months after you get done.

[BrianH]

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I went from C to Master in a year.

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Maybe tell us how much you actually credit the class for this, and how much is kicking your shooting schedule into high gear (more matches, more practice rounds, a reliability job on your gun, etc.)

I'm not nitpicking, I just think it is pertinent to the statement.

[mcoliver]

You guys are lucky you've got the top dawgs to have the time for info bridging.  Back here I can only have books and videos (and hopefully Matt's DVD's soon).  Given the chance of me visiting over there, my first priority will be to enroll in a 5-day class and absorb as much as I can even if it means I don't get to do anything else. Okay, another day to visit one of your major matches and hopefully get to meet some of you would probbly be next on the list

[ErikW]

BrianH, I guess everything just finally fell into place. And I happened to get a kick-ass new gun. But I wasn't doing anything special as far as practice or matches. Like shred said, it takes time to absorb, evaluate, and implement the things taught in the class.

You can probably glean a lot of free advice and/or instruction from your local Ms or GMs by helping them set up stages. A local new shooter did this and he tears up C class.

[Detlef]

much was said already, just 3 more remarks from someone who's been to Gunsite, Front Sight, Chapman Academy, Thunder Ranch, Frank Garcia's Academy, took two classes from Matt Burkett, over the past 11 years, and enjoyed every minute of it all:

1. Be clear about your objective! If it is just to meet the top dawgs, SO BE IT, it's ok! If it is to better *defensive* skills, that's ok, too, go to the big-name schools (I really liked ThunderRanch, no BS there...).

2. If it is to learn more about IPSC shooting, your money is probably best spent with a professional IPSC *instructor*, not a professional shooter. Garcia and Avery and Barnhart (and others, pardon if I omit you or your favorite) are running shooting schools and/or make most of their income as shooting instructors (!), they can Teach (!), a very distinct skill to Doing...

3. Pick someone who is similar in style to yourself as shooter. I am not an athletic shooter (though not an obese couch potato, either), and although I admire his ability I wouldn't go and take a class from IPSC World Champion Eric Grauffel because he's a total athlete and derives much of his success from this. I have realized that I need to become a better *shooter* primarily and probably have maxed out on my running and moving capability in this life...

--Detlef

[Shooter Grrl]

Sorry for the late reply... but the absolute BEST benefit of taking a class from an IPSC shooter is that they then consider you "one of theirs".  NOTHING will help you along your shooting career more than being able to pick the minds of the top dogs in the sport.  I have witnesses to how much of a benefit this can be - right Shred?  

I asked my "instructor/coach" how to shoot a stage at the Nationals, Shred overhead and WE BOTH had one of our best stages just from listening to him explain why he did what he did (and of course following his advice!)

[shred]

That's right.. I've gotta to follow Kath around more often..  Getting adopted by a top shooter is cool.

[SiG Lady]

Has anyone been to any of the SiGArms Academy offerings...?

[Flexmoney]

I don't know of anybody that has talked of taking a class there (there is a write-up in one of the gun rags).

Are you thinking of taking a class?  If so, what kind?

[gmshtr]

Sig Lady,

I had a chance to take the Sig Academy "Tactical" Shooting School a couple of years ago.  If you're attending to learn more about competitive shooting techniques, it's probably not the class for you....but, it still has some merit in gun handling skills, use of cover, etc.  The instructor, to say the least, had an ego.  I've never had an instructor, until then, ask me to slow down during a speed shooting exercise!  

That brings up another point.  Alot of the major manufacturer instructors are ex-law enforcement instructors.  More times than not, you have egos there to deal with.  As a LE firearms instructor, I see this alot.  Some of these people don't react well to superior shooters in their classes.  Then again, some of the top shooters don't either!  Additionally, ex-LE instructors don't usually have a strong background in competitive IPSC/IDPA shooting.  Alot of cops don't like getting beat by "those f#@!*ing civilians" (present company excluded).  Therefore, you're more likely to go through "advanced" police shooting techniques in some of these classes; ie, Glock, Sig, S&W, H&K schools.  

Of course, there are exceptions - Ron Avery's classes for one.  Hopefully, my classes will be an exception, as well.  

By the way, for all the cops that shoot competitively, don't get offended.  I'm not talking about you.  Then again, I've been a cop for 10 years, so I've earned the right to offend.....so get offended if you want!  

Hope this helps, Sig Lady

[Flexmoney]

Phil said what I was leading to.

If you are after some good pistol handling skills...might as well go with the the big-dogs in the action pistol sports.  Many of them are good instructors as well...they could likely teach to the instructors at other places.

[SiG Lady]

Thanks for all your insight, as always.  I'll print this out and save it for next spring.

There are still a couple of local (less than 100 mile radius) instructional opportunities I could re-investigate before spending big buxx to going al the way to the East Coast...

Yeh, well, ex-Marines who conduct handgun safety classes seem to have egos, too. But I just work around that. I manage to squeeze a lot of learning out of sometimes the most 'offensive' situations. I just hope the ego on the other end of the teaching experience realizes just how much I'm getting from them, even filtered thru that ego thing. I don't take offense TOO easily.

[EricW]

I hate to suggest panhandling as a way to obtain training, but it's worked for me to a limited extent.  When I was going hot and heavy last year, I made a point to always help the GM's setup the bays on the day prior to a match.  Although I never asked, when they saw me practicing, they'd take time to drop by my bay for 15-30 minutes and give me some free coaching.  I didn't expect it, nor did I have a right to it, but some days the best things in life are free.  

SigLady, you might want to just make the drive up to Albany or Sherwood and hang out every now and then.  We've got a lot of very talented and aimiable GM's here locally who are happy to help.  You might even be able to horsetrade with one of them to spend some time with you on a private lesson.  

If you're looking for a basic intro to IPSC class, Fred Foster puts one on at TriCounty for the princely sum of $30.  (Free for members.)  All I'm saying is that there are less financially draining resources available to help you get started.  You do what's best for you.

E

[Loves2Shoot]

I spent 3 years spinning my wheels, reading books, watching videos, bugging shooters, I got to me a decent shooter, but I developed some baaaadddd habits. I took class with Frank Garcia and he said my technique was basically aweful (I didnt draw, reload, or hold the gun right) and he was amazed I was shooting A Class from the drills we did. He was right. After his 1 day class (6 shooters) I left feeling more confident about what I needed to do and over the years since then my shooting has greatly improved. Any chance you get to work with a good teacher is worth it in my opinion. I wish I would have spent more $$$ on training instead of sending rounds downrange reinforcing bad habits.

ps. I lucked out and beat Frank that weeekend, his gun wasn't working but a win is a win

[TravisT]

Shoot Straighter with Strader!!

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Wonder why there's so many Oregon cats in the house?

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I made a point to always help the GM's setup the bays on the day prior to a match.  

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E- do you ever shoot with Pat and Dale? There’s a couple of awesome dudes who seriously know their stuff!!

~T (squared)