Touching holes while scoring targets?

[cheers623]

Hey guys, just wondering where I can find info about what an RO can and cannot do while scoring holes in targets. Can't find it in the rule book about looking at target surface, front, back, etc. I know I've seen it somewhere and I already know about the rule that says competitors may not touch the target.

Any help is appreciated.

[Rowdy1111]

I would assume the RO is able to touch the target and would need to do so for overlay use

[cheers623]

Specifically, can an RO touch the hole with their finger? Of course they can touch it with an overlay. But can they touch it with their finger. I.e. Putting finger into hole or touching behind the hole from opposite side of target?

[Rowdy1111]

It's a good question looking through the book I can't find a definite answer either

[George Jones]

The RO should not touch the bullet hole. The CRO should not touch the bullet hole. That avoids affecting the hit so that the RM (who is the last scoring appeal) can do whatever he needs to in order to make his/her call.

That is not in the rulebook, but it is good technique.

[Sarge]

George is right . It may not be in the rule book but anyone who didn't sleep through the RO class knows it to be the law of the land.

I guess there a bunch of those though because I see it all the time.

This rule is about as close as anything:

9.6.7 During a scoring challenge, the subject target(s) must not be patched, taped or otherwise interfered with until the matter has been settled.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Sarge

[Flatland Shooter]

Sarge got it right. The next rule excludes fingers, ball point pens and such as tools to verify scores.

9.6.8 Scoring overlays approved by the Range Master must be used exclusively, as and when required, to verify and/or determine the applicable scoring zone of hits on paper targets.

[High Lord Gomer]

On a related note...has anyone ever found looking at the back of the target useful, and if so, how?

The only time I look at the back of the target is for scoring IDPA shoot-throughs.

[CZinSC]

On a related note...has anyone ever found looking at the back of the target useful, and if so, how?

The only time I look at the back of the target is for scoring IDPA shoot-throughs.

Based on some of your scores, I'd say you havent found looking at the front of the targets useful either! :-) hey-ohhh!!

[High Lord Gomer]

On a related note...has anyone ever found looking at the back of the target useful, and if so, how?

The only time I look at the back of the target is for scoring IDPA shoot-throughs.

Based on some of your scores, I'd say you havent found looking at the front of the targets useful either! :-) hey-ohhh!!

OUCH!! That's a 1-Alpha the hard way!

[JayWord]

On a related note...has anyone ever found looking at the back of the target useful, and if so, how?

The only time I look at the back of the target is for scoring IDPA shoot-throughs.

Based on some of your scores, I'd say you havent found looking at the front of the targets useful either! :-) hey-ohhh!!

OUCH!! That's a 1-Alpha the hard way!

The 3 foot guide, not rule as stated by Gary Johnson:

The only thing that should get within 3 feet of a target are bullets, overlays and pasters.

It drives me nuts watching ROs fingering the target like they have to point up each hit.

"Don't touch the Target!" as heard at a Level 1 course.

BTW: The back of the target tells you nothing you can't find using your overlays.

Jay

[IHAVEGAS]

Came up at a level 2 match Sunday. Shooter was annoyed because r.o. Touched the target that he thought had his perfect double, not the hole, just the target.

A radio call and small delay later, the head honcho told the shooter 'sorry but it is a Mike and the r.o. did not do anything wrong'.

[Sarge]

Came up at a level 2 match Sunday. Shooter was annoyed because r.o. Touched the target that he thought had his perfect double, not the hole, just the target.

A radio call and small delay later, the head honcho told the shooter 'sorry but it is a Mike and the r.o. did not do anything wrong'.

Yeah, big difference in touching a target and touching it in a way that impacts scoring. They often move a lot with wind or when you try to hold an overlay on them. The shooter just missed and was trying to "game" his way out of it

[JohnRodriguez]

only person that cant touch the target is the shooter or there delegate. 9.1.2

[pjb45]

In my CRO class it was articulated that the RO or CRO should not touch the target-only the overlay.

I have seen some ROs press the back of the holes to determine if there is another grease mark or then put an overlay on the hole. I disagree with this activity. It alters the hole. If I was a MD or RM and got called over to review the target I would give the shooter the benefit.

[Gary Stevens]

When I am RM I will score the hole in the normal manner. If I can only see one hole, I will tell the shooter that it is a miss as of now. With their permission I will try to manipulate the target (pushing a torn paster or a malformed hole) in an effort to find their missing shot. Never been refused yet.

When I am not the RM it is overlays only.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Gary Stevens

[Thomas H]

only person that cant touch the target is the shooter or there delegate. 9.1.2

Actually, the rule says "competitors" not "shooter." So...no competitor (none of them) or their delegates (any of them) can touch the target. That's pretty much everyone that will be out there, other than match staff.

I suppose a different competitor might have a friend that could come up and touch the target....

Whether or not the RO should touch the target is a matter of common sense, not rule. There is no rule, correct. But common sense means not screwing with the target and potentially changing anything you are trying to use to determine hits. If you aren't the RM, you score it without touching it. On request, you use 2 overlays, but other than that, don't mess with the target. If the competitor still doesn't like it, call the RM, and hopefully they'll do what Gary just posted above.

[Sarge]

If you aren't the RM, you score it without touching it. On request, you use 2 overlays, but other than that, don't mess with the target. .

No. Sounds like you are saying I can't touch a target to score it. Am I suppose to call the RM for everything near a perf? Or if there is only one hole? Those are impossible to score without touching the target and I'm not calling for help.

Secondly I don't understand the,"on request I use two overlays" part. On request? From who? I'm not asking permission to do much if anything while scoring targets. And if you mean the shooter, he won't have to ask a good RO. When there is one hole present, even if your certain it's a mike, you should instinctively grab your overlays and check. This shows the shooter you care about scoring him fairly and 99% of the time they are more willing to accept the "Mike" call

Edited June 26, 2016 by Sarge

[Thomas H]

If you aren't the RM, you score it without touching it. On request, you use 2 overlays, but other than that, don't mess with the target. .

No. Sounds like you are saying I can't touch a target to score it. Am I suppose to call the RM for everything near a perf? Or if there is only one hole? Those are impossible to score without touching the target and I'm not calling for help.

Secondly I don't understand the,"on request I use two overlays" part. On request? From who? I'm not asking permission to do much if anything while scoring targets. And if you mean the shooter, he won't have to ask a good RO. When there is one hole present, even if your certain it's a mike, you should instinctively grab your overlays and check. This shows the shooter you care about scoring him fairly and 99% of the time they are more willing to accept the "Mike" call

You omitted the part about "common sense". I also wrote:

"Whether or not the RO should touch the target is a matter of common sense, not rule. There is no rule, correct. But common sense means not screwing with the target and potentially changing anything you are trying to use to determine hits."

Don't potentially change anything you are trying to use to determine hits. Does this mean you can't touch any part of the target? No, I grab the edges of the target all the time to make it stop moving, so I can get a close look at the hits.

As for the "on request" part----as an RO, I get requested periodically to use an overlay, whether for double-hits, near a perf, etc. When requested, I use them. This doesn't preclude using them on my own, which you seem to assume. I'm pretty sure you've been requested to use an overlay at some point in time when you didn't do it automatically---and I assume you did so, in a manner just like I said.

"Am I suppose to call the RM for everything near a perf? Or if there is only one hole?"

Never said anything like that. If you decided to take my "don't screw with the target and change anything you need to determine hits" and take it to mean "don't touch the target in any way at all ever no no no" there isn't a whole lot I can do about it.

We touch targets all the time. Other competitors (waiting to paste) often hold swinging targets for ROs. Others hold down max trap no-shoots so they are out of the way. We don't comment on that, because it isn't relevant. They aren't screwing with anything that may change what we need to determine hits.