waktasz Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 (edited) Shooting CM 08-02 this weekend. http://www.uspsa.org/classifiers/08-02.pdf String 3 calls for 4 shots weak hand. Shooter draws, fires 4 freestyle, reloads then fires 4 weak hand. The call was 11 procedurals. 4 for the first 4 shots which should have been weak hand. 4 for the 4 extra shots 3 for 3 extra hits (there was 1 mike on target so he didn't have an extra hit on that one) Sound about right? Edited May 9, 2016 by waktasz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HI5-O Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Sounds like the correct call for penalties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 I would have combined the 4 extra shots with the 4 shots freestyle so I would have come up with 7. Take a look at this ruling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 1 for not following the WSB. No significant advantage because of the next 2 items: 4 extra shots 3 extra hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted May 9, 2016 Author Share Posted May 9, 2016 (edited) This doesn't say anything about it having to be an advantage. 10.2.8 .... However, the competitor will be issued one procedural penalty per shot fired while: 10.2.8.1 Touching the handgun with the other hand while firing shots; 10.2.8.2 Using the other hand to support the handgun, wrist or shooting arm while firing shots; Edited May 9, 2016 by waktasz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Lets break it down. Say the shooter just did the 4 shots, but fired freestyle vs. WH. That would be 4 (10.2.2) [ETA: and/or 10.2.8.x] It is an advantage per shot, because each shot should have been WH. Freestyle is certainly an advantage any way you look at it. Now, lets add in the WH extras. They can't undo the penalties above. (10.1.4) Those stand. Now they also have the four extra shots (9.4.5.1), and also the three extra hits (9.4.5.2) 7 does sounds right. reference: 10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in thewritten stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occurrence.However, if a competitor has gained a significant advantage duringnon-compliance, the competitor may be assessed one proceduralpenalty for each shot fired, instead of a single penalty (e.g. firingmultiple shots contrary to the required position or stance). 10.2.2.1 Procedural penalties for failure to comply with stageprocedures do not apply to the number of shots fired. Penaltiesfor firing insufficient or additional shots are addressed in otherrules and must not be penalized under the provisions of 10.2.2. 10.1.4 Procedural penalties cannot be nullified by further competitor action.For example, a competitor who fires a shot at a target while faulting aline will still incur the applicable penalties even though he subsequentlyshoots at the same target while not faulting the line. 9.4.5.1 Extra shots (i.e. shots fired in excess of the number specified ina component string or stage), will each incur one proceduralpenalty. Additionally, during scoring, no more than thespecified number and highest scoring hits will be awarded. 9.4.5.2 Extra hits (i.e. hits on the scoring area of scoring paper targetsin excess of the total number specified in the stage), will eachincur one procedural penalty. Note that hits on hard coverand/or no-shoots are not treated as Extra Hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 This doesn't say anything about it having to be an advantage. 10.2.8 .... However, the competitor will be issued one procedural penalty per shot fired while: 10.2.8.1 Touching the handgun with the other hand while firing shots; 10.2.8.2 Using the other hand to support the handgun, wrist or shooting arm while firing shots; The advantage thing was for 10.2.2 He clearly did not follow the WSB. He eventually got around to shooting the stage correctly after the 4 extra shots and the unnecessary reload. I think you can hit him for the extra shots or the shots fired FS, but not both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 1 for not following the WSB. No significant advantage because of the next 2 items: 4 extra shots 3 extra hits. Only place significant advantage is mentioned in the rules is foot faukts,when one foot is outside of the shooting area. How does this apply here or is there another rule stating significant advantage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 This doesn't say anything about it having to be an advantage. 10.2.8 .... However, the competitor will be issued one procedural penalty per shot fired while: 10.2.8.1 Touching the handgun with the other hand while firing shots; 10.2.8.2 Using the other hand to support the handgun, wrist or shooting arm while firing shots; The advantage thing was for 10.2.2 He clearly did not follow the WSB. He eventually got around to shooting the stage correctly after the 4 extra shots and the unnecessary reload. I think you can hit him for the extra shots or the shots fired FS, but not both. Why not the the extra 4 shots? Those are assessed in the box, he took 4 extra shots. Why not 3 extra hits? There were 3 extra hits on the target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 This doesn't say anything about it having to be an advantage. 10.2.8 .... However, the competitor will be issued one procedural penalty per shot fired while: 10.2.8.1 Touching the handgun with the other hand while firing shots; 10.2.8.2 Using the other hand to support the handgun, wrist or shooting arm while firing shots; The advantage thing was for 10.2.2 He clearly did not follow the WSB. He eventually got around to shooting the stage correctly after the 4 extra shots and the unnecessary reload. I think you can hit him for the extra shots or the shots fired FS, but not both. Why not the the extra 4 shots? Those are assessed in the box, he took 4 extra shots. Why not 3 extra hits? There were 3 extra hits on the target. I said that there should be 1 not following the WSB, 4 extra shots, and 3 extra hits. Grand total 8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 1 for not following the WSB. No significant advantage because of the next 2 items: 4 extra shots 3 extra hits. Only place significant advantage is mentioned in the rules is foot faukts,when one foot is outside of the shooting area. How does this apply here or is there another rule stating significant advantage? flex quoted at least one other rule stating 'significant advantage' above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 I would say 7. 4 extra shots 3 extra hits He followed the WSB and fired 4 shot weak hand only......he just did it after firing 4 shots freestyle and a reload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 (edited) - For the shots fired freestyle instead of weak hand: One per shot fired in that condition per Rule 10.2.8.1 - For shots Five thru Eight: Four Extra Shot penalties per Rule 9.4.5.1 - For the three Extra (scoring) Hits on the targets: Three Extra Hit penalties per Rule 9.4.5.2 No other penalties for "general violation" of the stage procedure per 10.2.2 since the above rules are more specific. In other words, no double jeopardy (a specific rule trumps a general rule). 10.2.2.1 is trumped by 9.4.5.1. Eleven total penalties. Brain meltdowns ain't cheap! :-) Edited May 9, 2016 by George Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Math Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Four-letter word? :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 George, I like your logic. It seems to add up to 7, where your math adds up to 11? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 I'll let you figure it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 George, I like your logic. It seems to add up to 7, where your math adds up to 11? I think 4 procedural for shooting free style. 4 procedural for extra shots fired. 3 procedural for extra hits. He would have been better to stop after he screwed up and fired 4 shots 2 handed,,everything after that didn't mitigated the procedural and added 4 more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 - For the shots fired freestyle instead of weak hand: One per shot fired in that condition per Rule 10.2.8.1 - For shots Five thru Eight: Four Extra Shot penalties per Rule 9.4.5.1 - For the three Extra (scoring) Hits on the targets: Three Extra Hit penalties per Rule 9.4.5.2 No other penalties for "general violation" of the stage procedure per 10.2.2 since the above rules are more specific. In other words, no double jeopardy (a specific rule trumps a general rule). 10.2.2.1 is trumped by 9.4.5.1. Eleven total penalties. Brain meltdowns ain't cheap! :-) Thanks George. I was looking at possible double jeopardy in the FS/Extra shots. 11 it is. Bummer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 - For the shots fired freestyle instead of weak hand: One per shot fired in that condition per Rule 10.2.8.1 - For shots Five thru Eight: Four Extra Shot penalties per Rule 9.4.5.1 - For the three Extra (scoring) Hits on the targets: Three Extra Hit penalties per Rule 9.4.5.2 No other penalties for "general violation" of the stage procedure per 10.2.2 since the above rules are more specific. In other words, no double jeopardy (a specific rule trumps a general rule). 10.2.2.1 is trumped by 9.4.5.1. Eleven total penalties. Brain meltdowns ain't cheap! :-) Couldn't this also be seen as double jeopardy? The way I think of it the 4 freestyle shots could be seen as being the 4 extra shots so imposing 11 procedurals (instead of 7) would be 2 procedurals per shot for the 4 freestyle shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 - For the shots fired freestyle instead of weak hand: One per shot fired in that condition per Rule 10.2.8.1 - For shots Five thru Eight: Four Extra Shot penalties per Rule 9.4.5.1 - For the three Extra (scoring) Hits on the targets: Three Extra Hit penalties per Rule 9.4.5.2 No other penalties for "general violation" of the stage procedure per 10.2.2 since the above rules are more specific. In other words, no double jeopardy (a specific rule trumps a general rule). 10.2.2.1 is trumped by 9.4.5.1. Eleven total penalties. Brain meltdowns ain't cheap! :-) Couldn't this also be seen as double jeopardy? The way I think of it the 4 freestyle shots could be seen as being the 4 extra shots so imposing 11 procedurals (instead of 7) would be 2 procedurals per shot for the 4 freestyle shots. That's what I was thinking but consider this. The first 4 shots were fired FS, but were still under the max round count. Later in time, the poor guy fired 4 extra shots. So it isn't double jeopardy since the penalties were earned on unique shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 - For the shots fired freestyle instead of weak hand: One per shot fired in that condition per Rule 10.2.8.1 - For shots Five thru Eight: Four Extra Shot penalties per Rule 9.4.5.1 - For the three Extra (scoring) Hits on the targets: Three Extra Hit penalties per Rule 9.4.5.2 No other penalties for "general violation" of the stage procedure per 10.2.2 since the above rules are more specific. In other words, no double jeopardy (a specific rule trumps a general rule). 10.2.2.1 is trumped by 9.4.5.1. Eleven total penalties. Brain meltdowns ain't cheap! :-) Couldn't this also be seen as double jeopardy? The way I think of it the 4 freestyle shots could be seen as being the 4 extra shots so imposing 11 procedurals (instead of 7) would be 2 procedurals per shot for the 4 freestyle shots. That's what I was thinking but consider this. The first 4 shots were fired FS, but were still under the max round count. Later in time, the poor guy fired 4 extra shots. So it isn't double jeopardy since the penalties were earned on unique shots. 9.4.5.1 Extra shots (i.e. shots fired in excess of the number specified in a component string or stage), will each incur one procedural penalty. It doesn't say extra shots are shots fired 'after' the number specified, just in excess. So the first 4 shots fired (the ones shot freestyle) could be considered the extra shots. At least that's how I read it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 "Double jeopardy" happens when you apply two different penalties for the same act. This is usually when you try to apply both a general rule (such as 10.2.2) and a specific rule for the same act. You can't do both. In the event described by the OP, each act had a separate and independent specific penalty, so it's easy. Eleven total. Now there are cases where you could apply more than one penalty for the same shots. An example would be in a Standards string of four shots, then a mandatory reload, then four more shots. Shooter forgets the reload and fires a total of ten shots. He gets a per shot penalty until he's done shooting for forgetting the reload (six per 10.2.4). He also gets two Extra Shot penalties (9.4.5.1). Note that the limitation on the number of penalties in 10.2.3 only applies to 10.2.1 (faulting) and 10.2.2. (stage procedure). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 George, I like your logic. It seems to add up to 7, where your math adds up to 11? 4 + 4 + 3 = 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BARRYJ Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 It's a 100 point stage. 7,10, or 11, the score would probably be zero either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now