quick virginia count question

[waktasz]

Shooting CM 08-02 this weekend. http://www.uspsa.org/classifiers/08-02.pdf

String 3 calls for 4 shots weak hand.

Shooter draws, fires 4 freestyle, reloads then fires 4 weak hand.

The call was 11 procedurals.

4 for the first 4 shots which should have been weak hand.

4 for the 4 extra shots

3 for 3 extra hits (there was 1 mike on target so he didn't have an extra hit on that one)

Sound about right?

Edited May 9, 2016 by waktasz

[HI5-O]

Sounds like the correct call for penalties.

[ktm300]

I would have combined the 4 extra shots with the 4 shots freestyle so I would have come up with 7.

Take a look at this ruling

[ChuckS]

1 for not following the WSB. No significant advantage because of the next 2 items:

4 extra shots

3 extra hits.

[waktasz]

This doesn't say anything about it having to be an advantage.

10.2.8 .... However, the competitor will be

issued one procedural penalty per shot fired while:

10.2.8.1 Touching the handgun with the other hand while firing shots;

10.2.8.2 Using the other hand to support the handgun, wrist or shooting

arm while firing shots;

Edited May 9, 2016 by waktasz

[Flexmoney]

Lets break it down. Say the shooter just did the 4 shots, but fired freestyle vs. WH. That would be 4 (10.2.2) [ETA: and/or 10.2.8.x]

It is an advantage per shot, because each shot should have been WH. Freestyle is certainly an advantage any way you look at it.

Now, lets add in the WH extras. They can't undo the penalties above. (10.1.4) Those stand.

Now they also have the four extra shots (9.4.5.1), and also the three extra hits (9.4.5.2)

7 does sounds right.

reference:

10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in the
written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occurrence.
However, if a competitor has gained a significant advantage during
non-compliance, the competitor may be assessed one procedural
penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single penalty (e.g. firing
multiple shots contrary to the required position or stance).

10.2.2.1 Procedural penalties for failure to comply with stage
procedures do not apply to the number of shots fired. Penalties
for firing insufficient or additional shots are addressed in other
rules and must not be penalized under the provisions of 10.2.2.

10.1.4 Procedural penalties cannot be nullified by further competitor action.
For example, a competitor who fires a shot at a target while faulting a
line will still incur the applicable penalties even though he subsequently
shoots at the same target while not faulting the line.

9.4.5.1 Extra shots (i.e. shots fired in excess of the number specified in
a component string or stage), will each incur one procedural
penalty. Additionally, during scoring, no more than the
specified number and highest scoring hits will be awarded.

9.4.5.2 Extra hits (i.e. hits on the scoring area of scoring paper targets
in excess of the total number specified in the stage), will each
incur one procedural penalty. Note that hits on hard cover
and/or no-shoots are not treated as Extra Hits.

[ChuckS]

This doesn't say anything about it having to be an advantage.

10.2.8 .... However, the competitor will be

issued one procedural penalty per shot fired while:

10.2.8.1 Touching the handgun with the other hand while firing shots;

10.2.8.2 Using the other hand to support the handgun, wrist or shooting

arm while firing shots;

The advantage thing was for 10.2.2 He clearly did not follow the WSB. He eventually got around to shooting the stage correctly after the 4 extra shots and the unnecessary reload. I think you can hit him for the extra shots or the shots fired FS, but not both.

[bret]

1 for not following the WSB. No significant advantage because of the next 2 items:

4 extra shots

3 extra hits.

Only place significant advantage is mentioned in the rules is foot faukts,when one foot is outside of the shooting area.

How does this apply here or is there another rule stating significant advantage?

[bret]

This doesn't say anything about it having to be an advantage.

10.2.8 .... However, the competitor will be

issued one procedural penalty per shot fired while:

10.2.8.1 Touching the handgun with the other hand while firing shots;

10.2.8.2 Using the other hand to support the handgun, wrist or shooting

arm while firing shots;

The advantage thing was for 10.2.2 He clearly did not follow the WSB. He eventually got around to shooting the stage correctly after the 4 extra shots and the unnecessary reload. I think you can hit him for the extra shots or the shots fired FS, but not both.

Why not the the extra 4 shots?

Those are assessed in the box, he took 4 extra shots.

Why not 3 extra hits?

There were 3 extra hits on the target.

[ChuckS]

This doesn't say anything about it having to be an advantage.

10.2.8 .... However, the competitor will be

issued one procedural penalty per shot fired while:

10.2.8.1 Touching the handgun with the other hand while firing shots;

10.2.8.2 Using the other hand to support the handgun, wrist or shooting

arm while firing shots;

The advantage thing was for 10.2.2 He clearly did not follow the WSB. He eventually got around to shooting the stage correctly after the 4 extra shots and the unnecessary reload. I think you can hit him for the extra shots or the shots fired FS, but not both.

Why not the the extra 4 shots?

Those are assessed in the box, he took 4 extra shots.

Why not 3 extra hits?

There were 3 extra hits on the target.

I said that there should be 1 not following the WSB, 4 extra shots, and 3 extra hits. Grand total 8.

[motosapiens]

1 for not following the WSB. No significant advantage because of the next 2 items:

4 extra shots

3 extra hits.

Only place significant advantage is mentioned in the rules is foot faukts,when one foot is outside of the shooting area.

How does this apply here or is there another rule stating significant advantage?

flex quoted at least one other rule stating 'significant advantage' above.

[Strick]

I would say 7.

4 extra shots

3 extra hits

He followed the WSB and fired 4 shot weak hand only......he just did it after firing 4 shots freestyle and a reload.

[George Jones]

- For the shots fired freestyle instead of weak hand: One per shot fired in that condition per Rule 10.2.8.1

- For shots Five thru Eight: Four Extra Shot penalties per Rule 9.4.5.1

- For the three Extra (scoring) Hits on the targets: Three Extra Hit penalties per Rule 9.4.5.2

No other penalties for "general violation" of the stage procedure per 10.2.2 since the above rules are more specific. In other words, no double jeopardy (a specific rule trumps a general rule). 10.2.2.1 is trumped by 9.4.5.1.

Eleven total penalties. Brain meltdowns ain't cheap! :-)

Edited May 9, 2016 by George Jones

[Flexmoney]

Math

[George Jones]

Four-letter word? :-)

[Flexmoney]

George, I like your logic. It seems to add up to 7, where your math adds up to 11?

[George Jones]

I'll let you figure it out.

[bret]

George, I like your logic. It seems to add up to 7, where your math adds up to 11?

I think 4 procedural for shooting free style.

4 procedural for extra shots fired.

3 procedural for extra hits.

He would have been better to stop after he screwed up and fired 4 shots 2 handed,,everything after that didn't mitigated the procedural and added 4 more.

[ChuckS]

- For the shots fired freestyle instead of weak hand: One per shot fired in that condition per Rule 10.2.8.1

- For shots Five thru Eight: Four Extra Shot penalties per Rule 9.4.5.1

- For the three Extra (scoring) Hits on the targets: Three Extra Hit penalties per Rule 9.4.5.2

No other penalties for "general violation" of the stage procedure per 10.2.2 since the above rules are more specific. In other words, no double jeopardy (a specific rule trumps a general rule). 10.2.2.1 is trumped by 9.4.5.1.

Eleven total penalties. Brain meltdowns ain't cheap! :-)

Thanks George. I was looking at possible double jeopardy in the FS/Extra shots. 11 it is. Bummer...

[Southpaw]

- For the shots fired freestyle instead of weak hand: One per shot fired in that condition per Rule 10.2.8.1

- For shots Five thru Eight: Four Extra Shot penalties per Rule 9.4.5.1

- For the three Extra (scoring) Hits on the targets: Three Extra Hit penalties per Rule 9.4.5.2

No other penalties for "general violation" of the stage procedure per 10.2.2 since the above rules are more specific. In other words, no double jeopardy (a specific rule trumps a general rule). 10.2.2.1 is trumped by 9.4.5.1.

Eleven total penalties. Brain meltdowns ain't cheap! :-)

Couldn't this also be seen as double jeopardy? The way I think of it the 4 freestyle shots could be seen as being the 4 extra shots so imposing 11 procedurals (instead of 7) would be 2 procedurals per shot for the 4 freestyle shots.

[ChuckS]

- For the shots fired freestyle instead of weak hand: One per shot fired in that condition per Rule 10.2.8.1

- For shots Five thru Eight: Four Extra Shot penalties per Rule 9.4.5.1

- For the three Extra (scoring) Hits on the targets: Three Extra Hit penalties per Rule 9.4.5.2

No other penalties for "general violation" of the stage procedure per 10.2.2 since the above rules are more specific. In other words, no double jeopardy (a specific rule trumps a general rule). 10.2.2.1 is trumped by 9.4.5.1.

Eleven total penalties. Brain meltdowns ain't cheap! :-)

Couldn't this also be seen as double jeopardy? The way I think of it the 4 freestyle shots could be seen as being the 4 extra shots so imposing 11 procedurals (instead of 7) would be 2 procedurals per shot for the 4 freestyle shots.

That's what I was thinking but consider this. The first 4 shots were fired FS, but were still under the max round count. Later in time, the poor guy fired 4 extra shots. So it isn't double jeopardy since the penalties were earned on unique shots.

[Southpaw]

- For the shots fired freestyle instead of weak hand: One per shot fired in that condition per Rule 10.2.8.1

- For shots Five thru Eight: Four Extra Shot penalties per Rule 9.4.5.1

- For the three Extra (scoring) Hits on the targets: Three Extra Hit penalties per Rule 9.4.5.2

No other penalties for "general violation" of the stage procedure per 10.2.2 since the above rules are more specific. In other words, no double jeopardy (a specific rule trumps a general rule). 10.2.2.1 is trumped by 9.4.5.1.

Eleven total penalties. Brain meltdowns ain't cheap! :-)

Couldn't this also be seen as double jeopardy? The way I think of it the 4 freestyle shots could be seen as being the 4 extra shots so imposing 11 procedurals (instead of 7) would be 2 procedurals per shot for the 4 freestyle shots.

That's what I was thinking but consider this. The first 4 shots were fired FS, but were still under the max round count. Later in time, the poor guy fired 4 extra shots. So it isn't double jeopardy since the penalties were earned on unique shots.

9.4.5.1 Extra shots (i.e. shots fired in excess of the number specified in a component string or stage), will each incur one procedural penalty.

It doesn't say extra shots are shots fired 'after' the number specified, just in excess. So the first 4 shots fired (the ones shot freestyle) could be considered the extra shots. At least that's how I read it

[George Jones]

"Double jeopardy" happens when you apply two different penalties for the same act. This is usually when you try to apply both a general rule (such as 10.2.2) and a specific rule for the same act. You can't do both.

In the event described by the OP, each act had a separate and independent specific penalty, so it's easy. Eleven total.

Now there are cases where you could apply more than one penalty for the same shots. An example would be in a Standards string of four shots, then a mandatory reload, then four more shots. Shooter forgets the reload and fires a total of ten shots. He gets a per shot penalty until he's done shooting for forgetting the reload (six per 10.2.4). He also gets two Extra Shot penalties (9.4.5.1).

Note that the limitation on the number of penalties in 10.2.3 only applies to 10.2.1 (faulting) and 10.2.2. (stage procedure).

[frag316]

George, I like your logic. It seems to add up to 7, where your math adds up to 11?

4 + 4 + 3 = 11

[BARRYJ]

It's a 100 point stage. 7,10, or 11, the score would probably be zero either way.