DVC LIMITED- Violent recoil

[jtrump]

The first couple of times I shot a stock edge I thought they were really snappy. I've always shot SS (200 grain bayou bullet with 4.8 grains of WST making 172pf).

Then my buddy with the edge switched to a steel grip, it made it stay real flat. Then I built my 6" limited gun with a steel grip, 12 lb recoil and 17 lb main spring. I'm shooting 180 grain bayous with 4.3 grains of TG at 1.175, I'm making 175pf and amazed at how soft the gun shoots.

Another buddy has a 6" pistol set up almost identical to mine, his slide is about an ounce lighter than mine (his has cut in the front only, mine is Tri-topped) his gun is a bit snappier than mine.

I debated switching out the mainspring which is 15# to a 17# and dropping to recoil spring down to 11lbs to see what it feels like... I've pretty much got the softest shooting load I'm going to get... I would like to shoot my loads through someones edge, or try some of their loads and compare.

[screwj]

Oops getting mixed up lol. I meant 5.1gr. I bought something called Dry Hands on Amazon that seems to work well. It does kind of get gummy on your mags by end of day but I like it So far. I haven't tried ProGrip or Prince yet though.

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[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: One thing you might try is actually going to a lighter bullet. Crazy as it seems the faster recoil impulse may work better for you. I use a 165 grain Montana Gold bullet in my light single stack 40 and my light limited guns. I use a timer to see what works faster and for me the 165's were faster than the 180's. I also use a 12.5lb recoil spring with a 17lb mainspring. Thanks, Eric

[jtrump]

Good to know Eric,

My smith handed my a box of 200g FMJ's and some 150's coated... I'm like 150g??? he said make up a load they might feel and run better. We just finished fitting a new firing pin stop, in hopes to slow the slide down a little as it runs like a raped ape. I will be doing some more chrono work tomorrow and trying out different springs weights/ standard and variable. Match Saturday not much time

[scottrallye]

I hate to be "unhelpful", but after reading this entire thread, I'm pretty well convinced the gun/ammo is running exactly as it should. As much trouble as I've seen people have with their STI's to get them running well, none of them required a bunch of extra work to get them to "recoil like it should". You can continue to chase down technical issues and try every combination of bullet/powder/springs imaginable, and at the end of the day I feel like you're still going to have a gun the recoils like a limited/major gun does... that is to say, snappy.

I have my CZ Tactical Sport pretty well refined for me. That said, I've always joked that if it weren't for competing in Limited Major, there is no way in hell I'd ever choose to shoot .40 major for "fun". It's an inherently snappy, harsh caliber to shoot in my opinion. Despite that, in my GoPro footage, you'd guess that the gun shoots fairly "flat". That has less to do with grip strength, springs, and ammo power factor than it does timing (although those things help, none of them make the recoil go from violent to... whatever you think it should be). I see newer shooters shooting 9 major in production and their gun is flying around like it's a .44 mag.

How many other Limited .40 (steel) guns have you shot? Have you tried your ammo in a different pistol to compare? It just seems crazy to me that you got the ONE DVC Limited pistol out there that somehow recoils more violently than all the rest. And I say that as a person who has seen and heard enough crazy problems with STI's to believe about anything is possible. Sheer grip strength isn't a cure (and can cause more problems rather than less) and it sounds like you have a good load developed. Considering it sounds like you haven't been shooting Limited major before this pistol, I'm leaning towards "expectations differing from reality" as the probable issue. I could be very, very wrong, but I have seen people spend insane amounts of time and money chasing down a rabbit hole to "flatten" their gun out (yes, including myself!), when 99% of the time it's training, dry fire, and experience that helps more than anything.

[nitrohuck]

buy a phoenix trinity or SVI stainless steel grip and you will instantly see a remarkable difference in your gun's handling.

I have the svi stainless grip with stainless magwell and i cannot speak highly enough of the combo. Felt recoil is deadened in your hands with all the extra weight in your grip, i have a feeling these are very much going to become the norm for the 2011 platform. It isn't cheap buy once cry once, you won't look back.

Edited March 16, 2016 by nitrohuck

[jtrump]

I hate to be "unhelpful", but after reading this entire thread, I'm pretty well convinced the gun/ammo is running exactly as it should. As much trouble as I've seen people have with their STI's to get them running well, none of them required a bunch of extra work to get them to "recoil like it should". You can continue to chase down technical issues and try every combination of bullet/powder/springs imaginable, and at the end of the day I feel like you're still going to have a gun the recoils like a limited/major gun does... that is to say, snappy.

I have my CZ Tactical Sport pretty well refined for me. That said, I've always joked that if it weren't for competing in Limited Major, there is no way in hell I'd ever choose to shoot .40 major for "fun". It's an inherently snappy, harsh caliber to shoot in my opinion. Despite that, in my GoPro footage, you'd guess that the gun shoots fairly "flat". That has less to do with grip strength, springs, and ammo power factor than it does timing (although those things help, none of them make the recoil go from violent to... whatever you think it should be). I see newer shooters shooting 9 major in production and their gun is flying around like it's a .44 mag.

How many other Limited .40 (steel) guns have you shot? Have you tried your ammo in a different pistol to compare? It just seems crazy to me that you got the ONE DVC Limited pistol out there that somehow recoils more violently than all the rest. And I say that as a person who has seen and heard enough crazy problems with STI's to believe about anything is possible. Sheer grip strength isn't a cure (and can cause more problems rather than less) and it sounds like you have a good load developed. Considering it sounds like you haven't been shooting Limited major before this pistol, I'm leaning towards "expectations differing from reality" as the probable issue. I could be very, very wrong, but I have seen people spend insane amounts of time and money chasing down a rabbit hole to "flatten" their gun out (yes, including myself!), when 99% of the time it's training, dry fire, and experience that helps more than anything.

Well Just going to touch on a few things here, I've shot a lot... a lot lot, never much .40 though, and never in competition. Basically all of the ammo I've ever shot has been factory ammo around 180pf, in 9mm "military" and .45acp "I've just always been a fan of 1911's".

That being said, I did run my loads through a gun my smith built two days ago, it's a regular 2011 sti frame, with a Caspian frame and I forget which match barrel, But it's probably as close to a stock edge as possible.. my gun felt only slightly different then my loads did in his, not a very drastic difference.

Grip strength yes, I know squeezing the gun really hard does more harm than good, I've got a good grip going, I have really only played with one spring combo and that's a 12lb variable Wolff spring, the 14lb was to heavy I could tell immediately. I'm going to try out a 12lb Standard, and I have some 11's I might even try as well.

I agree with you dry fire is key, that's probably the only reason I'm going to start out in B class, because to be honest when I'm not calling my shots because I'm missing the dot while trying to "go quickly" then my scores suffer and that's not acceptable. The only problem is I can't practice following that front sight in dry fire, During practice I can draw from a buzzer on 1 shot drills and hit that 8" plate @ 15 yards all day in around 1 second, "seems we always have to run and draw during a match :P" But the follow up shots, When I'm looking at that target @ 15 yards during a match I pull the trigger and the dot goes away and I can't find it, so I'm basically point shooting... which leads to C's, D's, and yes MIKES!

I'm going to stick with it.. the load I have now is much softer than HP38/W231 that I started out with, Just going to have to put some rounds down range and glue my eyes to that front sight to call my shots and shoot A's... maybe even slow down a little to make sure. Timing like you said, I'm trying to run and gun because hell yea I'm fast but it's not doing me any good if I'm not getting my hits.

Appreciate the insight, Also to the ^^ I'll look into that thanks much!

[twodownzero]

However I also only notice it for a day or so if I switch between guns, so if I were the op I would do 1 of 2 things (or maybe both);

switch to 200 grain bullets

man up

200s weren't any softer for me. I tried them. They felt the same as the 180s.

[TonytheTiger]

Thread drift: how does "squeezing the gun really hard does more harm than good"?

[jtrump]

buy a phoenix trinity or SVI stainless steel grip and you will instantly see a remarkable difference in your gun's handling.

I have the svi stainless grip with stainless magwell and i cannot speak highly enough of the combo. Felt recoil is deadened in your hands with all the extra weight in your grip, i have a feeling these are very much going to become the norm for the 2011 platform. It isn't cheap buy once cry once, you won't look back.

Ouch they are kinda pricey lol, I'm guessing the option would be "non-infinity clone frame?"

[jtrump]

Thread drift: how does "squeezing the gun really hard does more harm than good"?

Because you can do it subconsciously and torque the gun inadvertently, plus over squeezing really Isn't getting you anything but more tired hands Grab something fat like your 2011 frame and squeeze it as hard as you can for about 15 seconds, Bet you your hands start shaking

[TonytheTiger]

Thread drift: how does "squeezing the gun really hard does more harm than good"?

Because you can do it subconsciously and torque the gun inadvertently, plus over squeezing really Isn't getting you anything but more tired hands Grab something fat like your 2011 frame and squeeze it as hard as you can for about 15 seconds, Bet you your hands start shaking

Just did it. Yup 15 seconds at 100% grip and I'm shaking. But guess what? I can do 90% all day, and that makes my gun track 17 billion times better and can usually get the average metrosexual man to cry when I shake his hand. If you train for grip strength nothing bad comes of using it.

[TonytheTiger]

Just thought about this a little more. If your subconsciously torquing the gun while gripping hard it means you haven't trained a neutral grip, which means you need to start over with your technique. Just saying..

[MrPostman]

buy a phoenix trinity or SVI stainless steel grip and you will instantly see a remarkable difference in your gun's handling.

I have the svi stainless grip with stainless magwell and i cannot speak highly enough of the combo. Felt recoil is deadened in your hands with all the extra weight in your grip, i have a feeling these are very much going to become the norm for the 2011 platform. It isn't cheap buy once cry once, you won't look back.

I love my PT steel on my open gun. The extra 10.5 oz of the textured grip vs 2.7 oz for the plastic makes a huge difference in how the gun feels. The smooth PT grip is 12.1 oz and that is what I will be using for my Limited build.

[scottrallye]

Thread drift: how does "squeezing the gun really hard does more harm than good"?

Read Brian Eno's book. He can explain better than me, but death gripping and "fighting" recoil is a lost cause because no amount of grip strength will eliminate it entirely. He argues that by focusing on equal grip pressure between both hands (using a grip similar to what you would use to swing a hammer) and learning the timing of your gun so it tracks perfectly up and down back onto the target will get you better results than the death-grip and fight method. I've spent a few months since I read it trying to put this to use, and while I'm certainly no Brian Enos, it does make for smoother, more controlled shooting. Plus, if you are like a buddy of mine who gets REALLY intense, your mags won't drop free from a polymer gun when you are squeezing the piss out of it [emoji12]

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[scottrallye]

I hate to be "unhelpful", but after reading this entire thread, I'm pretty well convinced the gun/ammo is running exactly as it should. As much trouble as I've seen people have with their STI's to get them running well, none of them required a bunch of extra work to get them to "recoil like it should". You can continue to chase down technical issues and try every combination of bullet/powder/springs imaginable, and at the end of the day I feel like you're still going to have a gun the recoils like a limited/major gun does... that is to say, snappy.

I have my CZ Tactical Sport pretty well refined for me. That said, I've always joked that if it weren't for competing in Limited Major, there is no way in hell I'd ever choose to shoot .40 major for "fun". It's an inherently snappy, harsh caliber to shoot in my opinion. Despite that, in my GoPro footage, you'd guess that the gun shoots fairly "flat". That has less to do with grip strength, springs, and ammo power factor than it does timing (although those things help, none of them make the recoil go from violent to... whatever you think it should be). I see newer shooters shooting 9 major in production and their gun is flying around like it's a .44 mag.

How many other Limited .40 (steel) guns have you shot? Have you tried your ammo in a different pistol to compare? It just seems crazy to me that you got the ONE DVC Limited pistol out there that somehow recoils more violently than all the rest. And I say that as a person who has seen and heard enough crazy problems with STI's to believe about anything is possible. Sheer grip strength isn't a cure (and can cause more problems rather than less) and it sounds like you have a good load developed. Considering it sounds like you haven't been shooting Limited major before this pistol, I'm leaning towards "expectations differing from reality" as the probable issue. I could be very, very wrong, but I have seen people spend insane amounts of time and money chasing down a rabbit hole to "flatten" their gun out (yes, including myself!), when 99% of the time it's training, dry fire, and experience that helps more than anything.

Well Just going to touch on a few things here, I've shot a lot... a lot lot, never much .40 though, and never in competition. Basically all of the ammo I've ever shot has been factory ammo around 180pf, in 9mm "military" and .45acp "I've just always been a fan of 1911's".

That being said, I did run my loads through a gun my smith built two days ago, it's a regular 2011 sti frame, with a Caspian frame and I forget which match barrel, But it's probably as close to a stock edge as possible.. my gun felt only slightly different then my loads did in his, not a very drastic difference.

Grip strength yes, I know squeezing the gun really hard does more harm than good, I've got a good grip going, I have really only played with one spring combo and that's a 12lb variable Wolff spring, the 14lb was to heavy I could tell immediately. I'm going to try out a 12lb Standard, and I have some 11's I might even try as well.

I agree with you dry fire is key, that's probably the only reason I'm going to start out in B class, because to be honest when I'm not calling my shots because I'm missing the dot while trying to "go quickly" then my scores suffer and that's not acceptable. The only problem is I can't practice following that front sight in dry fire, During practice I can draw from a buzzer on 1 shot drills and hit that 8" plate @ 15 yards all day in around 1 second, "seems we always have to run and draw during a match [emoji14]" But the follow up shots, When I'm looking at that target @ 15 yards during a match I pull the trigger and the dot goes away and I can't find it, so I'm basically point shooting... which leads to C's, D's, and yes MIKES!

I'm going to stick with it.. the load I have now is much softer than HP38/W231 that I started out with, Just going to have to put some rounds down range and glue my eyes to that front sight to call my shots and shoot A's... maybe even slow down a little to make sure. Timing like you said, I'm trying to run and gun because hell yea I'm fast but it's not doing me any good if I'm not getting my hits.

Appreciate the insight, Also to the ^^ I'll look into that thanks much!

Good plan. I could have summarized better by saying: Stick with it, learn your guns timing, practice, dry fire, and it'll work out good for you [emoji2]

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[scottrallye]

Just thought about this a little more. If your subconsciously torquing the gun while gripping hard it means you haven't trained a neutral grip, which means you need to start over with your technique. Just saying..

See, you already know. Strong grip is absolutely important, especially over 16 stages and 2 days, but it's the neutral part I was getting at [emoji108]

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[Larry White]

Set that gun up with a 19 lb main and a 12.5 lb recoil spring. Adding steel grips just slows down transitions, heavy guns are slow guns. We have shot those guns with plastic grips for years, check out the guys winning and I bet you find out their guns weigh 34 to 38 ozs. Swinging a brick around out there dosent do much for you. Gripping the snot out of the gun just slows down your spits. Grip the gun hard as you can for a few seconds and see how free your trigger finger is. Get your grip to about 40% strong hand and 60% weak hand. Load a 180 grain with titegroup or VV320 or something similar at a power factor about 170 or so. 1.180loa and a .418 crimp. Load a 2 gallon bucket full of that load. Go set up 3 targets at 10 yds, shoot bill drills and transision drills. Watch that front sight and follow it, try to shoot about 90% As, you will be slow but you will get faster.. Learn the gun and get in time with it. When that bucket is empty, repeat,often,. Use a timer and track your progress.-----------Larry

Edited March 17, 2016 by Larry White

[troupe]

Weight helps. The steel grip does make a difference. A cheaper route is to add a Dawson brass magwell and a stainless mainspring housing. It won't be the same advantage as the steel grip, but it will make a difference in the feel. If you are in the running for a National Championship, then the plastic may make the swing worth while, but the weight will help with the recoil. You will gain more by making the gun softer shooting than you will by saving a .10 on your swing.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying the swing is not important, because it is. Mentally, when you feel the gun is soft and you are not fighting it, you will be faster for you. Travis Tomasi explains it best on the swing between a light gun and a heavier gun, not that much difference.

[MrPostman]

Weight helps. The steel grip does make a difference. A cheaper route is to add a Dawson brass magwell and a stainless mainspring housing. It won't be the same advantage as the steel grip, but it will make a difference in the feel. If you are in the running for a National Championship, then the plastic may make the swing worth while, but the weight will help with the recoil. You will gain more by making the gun softer shooting than you will by saving a .10 on your swing.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying the swing is not important, because it is. Mentally, when you feel the gun is soft and you are not fighting it, you will be faster for you. Travis Tomasi explains it best on the swing between a light gun and a heavier gun, not that much difference.

^^^^^this

[nitrohuck]

*double post, admin please delete*

Edited March 17, 2016 by nitrohuck

[nitrohuck]

buy a phoenix trinity or SVI stainless steel grip and you will instantly see a remarkable difference in your gun's handling.

I have the svi stainless grip with stainless magwell and i cannot speak highly enough of the combo. Felt recoil is deadened in your hands with all the extra weight in your grip, i have a feeling these are very much going to become the norm for the 2011 platform. It isn't cheap buy once cry once, you won't look back.

Ouch they are kinda pricey lol, I'm guessing the option would be "non-infinity clone frame?"

buy a phoenix trinity or SVI stainless steel grip and you will instantly see a remarkable difference in your gun's handling.

I have the svi stainless grip with stainless magwell and i cannot speak highly enough of the combo. Felt recoil is deadened in your hands with all the extra weight in your grip, i have a feeling these are very much going to become the norm for the 2011 platform. It isn't cheap buy once cry once, you won't look back.

I love my PT steel on my open gun. The extra 10.5 oz of the textured grip vs 2.7 oz for the plastic makes a huge difference in how the gun feels. The smooth PT grip is 12.1 oz and that is what I will be using for my Limited build.

Weight helps. The steel grip does make a difference. A cheaper route is to add a Dawson brass magwell and a stainless mainspring housing. It won't be the same advantage as the steel grip, but it will make a difference in the feel. If you are in the running for a National Championship, then the plastic may make the swing worth while, but the weight will help with the recoil. You will gain more by making the gun softer shooting than you will by saving a .10 on your swing.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying the swing is not important, because it is. Mentally, when you feel the gun is soft and you are not fighting it, you will be faster for you. Travis Tomasi explains it best on the swing between a light gun and a heavier gun, not that much difference.

The perceived "negatives" of the extra weight in the gun with a steel grip is, to me, entirely negligible. I am 27, and decently strong but not jacked by any means, and I have no problem making quick transitions, you will get used to this in a matter of a few range outings.

The positives associated with the extra weight in the steel grip, on the other hand, will change your 2011 world within the first range session, it will feel like an entirely new gun. You will not look back, I assure you, and from everything I'm reading in this post the steel grip sounds like it is exactly the remedy for your situation. You know how to grip a gun, and you're not a stranger to different ranges of ammo, buy a PT or SVI grip and thank me later

BTW, for what it is worth, you do not need an SVI frame for the SVI grip, nor a PT frame for a PT grip, they can be fit to any 2011 frame with some minor stoning. My SVI grip was fit to my STI frame within about 20 minutes.

Edited March 17, 2016 by nitrohuck

[CHA-LEE]

All of this discussion is a waste without factual evidence of the "Failure Mode". Get some slow motion video taken from the weak hand side so we can actually SEE what you are complaining about.

[jtrump]

All of this discussion is a waste without factual evidence of the "Failure Mode". Get some slow motion video taken from the weak hand side so we can actually SEE what you are complaining about.

No offense, but if this is going to turn into a pissing contest which it's not........ I'm no GM yet and I've never claimed to be, but I taught shooting for along time, much longer than I've shot competition "3 matches"... If I have two shooters who both have shot limited division to High Master and one to GM, and they both say the gun feels violent and something isn't right then I would have to say I'm not complaining I'm right. And I will fix the problem eventually, so please constructive posts only.

Edited March 17, 2016 by jtrump

[jtrump]

buy a phoenix trinity or SVI stainless steel grip and you will instantly see a remarkable difference in your gun's handling.

I have the svi stainless grip with stainless magwell and i cannot speak highly enough of the combo. Felt recoil is deadened in your hands with all the extra weight in your grip, i have a feeling these are very much going to become the norm for the 2011 platform. It isn't cheap buy once cry once, you won't look back.

Ouch they are kinda pricey lol, I'm guessing the option would be "non-infinity clone frame?"

buy a phoenix trinity or SVI stainless steel grip and you will instantly see a remarkable difference in your gun's handling.

I have the svi stainless grip with stainless magwell and i cannot speak highly enough of the combo. Felt recoil is deadened in your hands with all the extra weight in your grip, i have a feeling these are very much going to become the norm for the 2011 platform. It isn't cheap buy once cry once, you won't look back.

I love my PT steel on my open gun. The extra 10.5 oz of the textured grip vs 2.7 oz for the plastic makes a huge difference in how the gun feels. The smooth PT grip is 12.1 oz and that is what I will be using for my Limited build.

Weight helps. The steel grip does make a difference. A cheaper route is to add a Dawson brass magwell and a stainless mainspring housing. It won't be the same advantage as the steel grip, but it will make a difference in the feel. If you are in the running for a National Championship, then the plastic may make the swing worth while, but the weight will help with the recoil. You will gain more by making the gun softer shooting than you will by saving a .10 on your swing.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying the swing is not important, because it is. Mentally, when you feel the gun is soft and you are not fighting it, you will be faster for you. Travis Tomasi explains it best on the swing between a light gun and a heavier gun, not that much difference.

The perceived "negatives" of the extra weight in the gun with a steel grip is, to me, entirely negligible. I am 27, and decently strong but not jacked by any means, and I have no problem making quick transitions, you will get used to this in a matter of a few range outings.

The positives associated with the extra weight in the steel grip, on the other hand, will change your 2011 world within the first range session, it will feel like an entirely new gun. You will not look back, I assure you, and from everything I'm reading in this post the steel grip sounds like it is exactly the remedy for your situation. You know how to grip a gun, and you're not a stranger to different ranges of ammo, buy a PT or SVI grip and thank me later

BTW, for what it is worth, you do not need an SVI frame for the SVI grip, nor a PT frame for a PT grip, they can be fit to any 2011 frame with some minor stoning. My SVI grip was fit to my STI frame within about 20 minutes.

I've noticed a lot of people running these steel grip frames and have nothing but good things to say about them! yea I shot a classifier last month and ran it with some smoking ass splits. I'll take that .19/.22 split and an A over that .14 and a C/D.

Why do they have to be so damn expensive hah, it's like half the cost of a new gun