Nik Habicht Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 The point I disagree on is that way we dress is going to put shooting in a good light. People who are antigun aren't using logic, but emotion. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You're right --- you're never going to change the minds of the people who've decided they're anti-gun. They've either thought about the issue enough, or have convinced themselves that they've though about it sufficiently, to cling to an entrenched position. Those aren't the people I'm looking to reach though. I firmly believe that there's a large contingent of undecideds and quasi-antis out there who can be brought around to our point of view ---- once they meet us and figure out that we're no different from most other people. Those people in the middle of the issue have the ability to protect our gun rights, they're the people we don't want to piss off. As far as handling the situation goes, I've found that a frank and polite conversation can go a long way if someone's dressing inappropriately at a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cking Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 OK I agree I'm in the minority! My last comment is that conformity stifles imagination, creativity. This country needs all it can get, along with diversity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted April 12, 2005 Author Share Posted April 12, 2005 cking, With all due respect, there is a hell of a difference between imagination and creativity and "if your looking for a fight - you found one." If what they did is so acceptable....why not put that on the USPSA home page....a nice line saying "we'll teach you how to kill" or something of similar meaning. Stifling creativity? No way. I merely expect most people to use their brain and realize there are consequences to their actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 One question settles the matter: "Would you, Mr. DOE security guy, wear that shirt on the job?" My bet would be NOT, which makes it a not-good thing for a competitive match. If they want to wear "workwear" then wear what they'd wear to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 It's all about setting an example... being role models for the right-to-shoot concept and the need for educating the on-the-fencers, the younger shooters and even the soft anti's. We can't afford to go around attending matches (or shooting in public) looking like either dirty hippies OR killer-freako-blackops-skinhead-jerks. Just can't do that. Even if we all weren't currently defending our rights to shoot and bear arms, we'd still owe it to ourselves and others around us to LOOK respectable and ACT respectable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 I used to shoot at Rocky Flats Arsenal back in my old PPC days. For the record, the DOE guys are about as spooky as they come. If they want to shoot in uniform as representatives of their agency, then I can tolerate that (but would prefer they dress a bit more normal). It's the double tough, in your face crap that I can do without. FWIW, there are a lot of of DOE folks who would really be pissed if they saw one of their guys wearing a shirt like that in uniform. Not because of what is does to the image of IPSC, but because of the lack of professionalism and what it does to the image of the DOE. The guy was out of line by all accounts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted April 12, 2005 Author Share Posted April 12, 2005 Unfortulantly it wasn't only one guy....it was a group of about 6 of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJPoLo Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 For the record, the DOE guys are about as spooky as they come. Pardon my ignorance, but is "DOE" Department of Energy or Department of Education. I am not kidding. -Chet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted April 12, 2005 Author Share Posted April 12, 2005 Department of Energy..... DOE are normally the guys in charge of guarding and protecting nuclear sites and weapons grade nuclear material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 The "Don't get up... we'll let ourselves in" is funny. The "If you're looking for a fight, you found one" is not. That's the difference as I see it. There's definitely a fine line, IMO. If you're LE or Mil, you should be able to wear your duty garb (as the rulebook specifies), but the witty T-shirts should be left to the gunstore commanduhs... and me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cking Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 The conservative nature of this thread has amazed me. I would have just laughed and let it go. To me it all falls under free speach, you can be as big an @ss as you want. As long as you don't yell fire in a crowded building! Cause then you actions have the likely potential to cause harm to innocent bystanders. We should not dictate good example, only practice it ourselves. I agree with almost everything said except saying you can't shoot here. Like I said I'm in the minority here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 potential to cause harm to innocent bystanders<{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think that's along the lines I'm thinking... wearing shirts that aren't all that funny and are more combative could harm the sport. I'll shoot you if you cause harm to my sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 BTW, I take offense at being called conservative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 Just think how good these guys would have looked if a member of the local media happened to "drop by"... I'd bet my life they couldn't wear that stuff "on the job", why let them make asses out of themselves and make the rest of the club members look like "nut jobs" by letting them wear that stuff at a match? I'd have thought that IPSC had come a long way towards cleaning up that image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ipscron2000 Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 Cause then you actions have the likely potential to cause harm to innocent bystanders. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The innocent by-standers are USPSA shooters. If the press was there taking pictures and was having a slow week, they would rip that club a new one. The club would be known as an "Anti-government training facility" who uses "semi-automatic assult weapons". We don't need that kind of press. They wouldn't show pictures of Joe Blow in his bright yellow shooters shirt and blue gun, they would show pics of those 6 dudes. my .02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 Freedom has the responsibilty for your actions attached to it. If you won't assume the responsibility for your actions, then it's not freedom, just anarchy. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 "If you are looking for a fight - you found one" with a picture of them with shouldered rifles. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> "Don't bother getting up we will let ourselves in". <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The first T-shirt does sound pretty hostile, but I like the second one. Nolan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 I don't like either of them, but that's just my reaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 Hate, not Debate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 Thanks, Erik... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 cking, yes, I was referring to 5.3.1. It's a rule, and if anybody wants to play the game he should stick with its rules. The politically correctness of the whole matter can be discussed over a beer at the end of the match, possibly out of the range, but while being there the rules shall be complied with. I'm glad there is disagreement and wealthy discussion about this, I welcome it as well as all opinions (when they're expressed in a polite way), but when it comes to rules, my personal behaviour is "comply or ask for them to be changed, don't break them because you don't like'em or because you feel you're above them". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cking Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 How many people have ever been at a local match and had press show up. Myself the answer is never. How many visitors have I seen show that might fall in class of on-the-fence. None all were pro-gun and interested in seeing what kind of shooting we were doing. What has turned off more shooters than anything else, is gun clubs that have cliks and are not inviting to new comers. H@ll I never met a press reporter that didn't already have the story theme decided before they show at the scene. I've taught at Journalisn School in major University for years. So my conclusion is though I don't think looking for a fight shirt is a brainy thing to do. I consider the 6 guys that showed important to the club, and the sport. More so than outside odds somebody seeing it and somehow think we are all the same. So again I would have engaged the 6 guys, now if they couldn't shoot worth a darn, I would have teased them they needed to change the shirt to read, look elsewhere for fight. With polite humor I would have implied that image is not what were looking for. But they can shoot, and if they were safe responsible shooters I would encourage them to come back. Make them feel welcomed. Now what would I do is somebody showed up with shirt that advocated pop a cap in cop today. I would probably have to side with majority and say that's over the line advocating violence. I still would not have said go home, I would say don't where it again. Little background I've run a couple clubs over the years, and recently got legislation and procedure in place in Florida to allow civies to shoot at Dept of Correction facilities state wide. www.ncfps.no-ip.com. I'm even republican. Currently watching the local cowboy club destroying itself because viaing factions have taken to sueing each other and wants eliminate duelist class and don't like each other attitude. I advocating tolerance, with pleasent humorous methods of expressing opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carinab Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 Ah, but sometimes you don't KNOW a member of the press is there....Happened to us at the gun safety/compeition class in San Diego. Guy took the class and went to dinner with us each night afterwards (it was a 7 week class, met once a week). While nothing was ever "incorrect" at the range, we'd BS and make un-pc jokes at dinner. The article came out and even though nothing could be said to slur the range, we barely held on to the class because the powers that be weren't happy. One picture does more bad press than article will (the thousand word proverb). When someone would show up to one of my matches with a shirt that was inappropriate, I'd go make them turn it inside out and simply say, "While I may (or may not) agree with the sentiments you are expressing, it is unfortunately against the rules." The choice was then up to them if they stayed or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 Most people who find their way to an action pistol match are not first time shooters...meaning that they have been to at least one and usually several ranges to shoot their weapons...and they must abide by the range rules for gun handling and safety...so it stands to reason that if they come to the range where an action pistol match is taking place they should abide by the rules there also. If that means avoiding wearing a T shirt with a "message" on it, so be it...same for camo....same for BDU's.... I could let it slide the first time they did it, and assume ignorance on their part, but it they showed up dressed the same way again...I am afraid they would have to leave.... As for humor, I am all for it...as for tolerance, I am for it also, but along with tolerance you have to use common sense and show some respect for those that built the club and shoot there...I assume that you wouldn't expect to be allowed to tee off at Agusta National wearing a dirty T shirt and ragged blue jean shorts, so appropriate dress is just part of that respect, be it a golf course or a shooting range... Personally it sounds like something that would be done by that person whose name we cannot mention on this forum.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted April 13, 2005 Author Share Posted April 13, 2005 cking, I thought I had gotten this point through....let me try it one more time in caps and a different color... IT WAS NOT A LOCAL MATCH. IT WAS AT THE SC SECTIONAL. I already stated if it was a local match, I don't really care....but not at a state or higher level match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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