Accuracy Problems

[TacticalReload]

So I have a few hundred Berry's 124 grain flat point hollow base bullets that I wanted to use up. I loaded them to around 1.010 with Federal primers, Federal brass, and Bullseye... Lee full length sizing afterward. I started at a min of 3.3 gr and worked my way up in .2 or .3 gr increments until I got to 4.4 gr and then stopped. The gun is a Glock 34 with factory barrel and Wolff recoil spring. I load on a Dillon 550 with Dillon dies.

The loads are crazy inaccurate. At 15 yards, the 3.5 gr loads were all over. Some were hitting POA and others were a good 7" high left and everywhere in between. As the powder loads increased, accuracy kind of got a little better but not terribly so... at 20 yards, there were still rounds hitting about 6+" high. The lightest loads were cycling the gun, but just barely and I'm sure they aren't making PF so it doesn't matter anyway. That being said, I don't want to have to crank these up to +P just to find some reasonable level of accuracy, if that's the problem. I don't recall having this much of an issue with Bullseye before. It's plenty accurate in my .38sp guns.

I also tried the same loads (4.4 grains) over 115 gr XTP. They were marginally better but not by much. In general, factory 115 gr FMJ loads aren't great in this gun but since the spread seems to be a little better, I was figuring it was just me and my 40-something year old eyes that aren't what they used to be. Now I'm beginning to wonder if the gun has some inherent accuracy issues. Either way, my loads seem to be having problems. This sucks because I live in an area where reasonably priced ranges are few and far between so frequent trips to work out the kinks is $$$.

So I guess my question is... anyone have any thoughts about this? I'd be fine if the loads were simply shooting high, but the spread is terrible. Is there something that is specifically bad with these bullets? I figure that if the bullet was really the problem, then I should have seen better performance with the XTP.

What would you recommend as a next step? Scrap the powder altogether and move to something else? I have plenty of Clays, Unique, HS-6, and Universal. (I'm on a budget and I'd rather not invest in yet another can of powder.)

I should have stuck with my Glock 35 instead of moving to the 34. I was trying to save $$ on reloading. 180gr loaded at min PF with clays was accurate and barely recoiled more than a .22. Now I'm having the damnedest time.

Edited February 12, 2016 by TacticalReload

[nwhpfan]

Sorry, but it's probably not going to be cheap. If you don't have a chrono, you should buy one. It would be ideal to know how fast your loads are going.

As for a stock Glock BBL with the powder you have listed, I've done just fine with 3.9 BE and 125 LCN, or 3G BE and a 147 RN from www.blackandbluebullets.com However I prefer a KKM barrel but I have shot plenty through stock barrel in GSSF matches.

[fishsticks]

Couple of thoughts, 1.01 seems short when loading for a Glock. 3.8 ish gr Be at ~1.15 met minor PF in my G17 before all the BE ran out in this area. Also what does your statement mean about full length sizing after? Using plated bullets over crimping can lead to results such as yours.

[vixty]

1.01 is extremely short. I load 124s at 1.040 and people always tell me I'm ganna blow myself up even though it has been a very safe load for me. Figure out how long you can load the bullets by backing off your seating die to where the bullets wont spin in the chamber then back it off by .050 until it finally spins. Once you find the spin point back it off another .010 and you should be good to go. FP bullets can be troublesome in some guns but for a glock you should be able to load closer to 1.080 or even 1.100 I would think.

[boatdoc]

Berry's recommends those to be seated at 1.060". I started running them longer at 1.065" and my accuracy improved a little. The only powder I use is TG. How much crimp are you applying?

[gaijin]

The theoretical advantage to the "hollow base" bullet is the hollow base will more easily obturate in the barrel.

This requires a certain amount of chamber pressure.

My guess is you haven't achieved the required chamber pressure level.

I tried some 124 Berry's 124 gr. HB FMJ's with 3.9 gr. of Tightgroup, which is a "steel" load I've used with success.

​This load, with PD/Zero/HAP 124 gr. JHP's shoots extremely well in a couple of my pistols.

The Berry's bullets were a disappointment.

At some point I may try running these bullets much hotter, with a different powder.

[Hi-Power Jack]

More powder, less crimp, more OAL and shoot them up in practice -

Get some better bullets next time (MG?) ...

If you pull a bullet, is there a ring around the collar?

[TacticalReload]

Sorry, but it's probably not going to be cheap. If you don't have a chrono, you should buy one. It would be ideal to know how fast your loads are going.

As for a stock Glock BBL with the powder you have listed, I've done just fine with 3.9 BE and 125 LCN, or 3G BE and a 147 RN from www.blackandbluebullets.com However I prefer a KKM barrel but I have shot plenty through stock barrel in GSSF matches.

I have a chrono, but I don't have anywhere to use it. I relocated from SE PA to NE FL less than a year ago. I expected that with the amount of open space and the fact that FL is the Gunshine State that I'd be able to find plenty of ranges / clubs to join. Sadly, it's not the case. There are a few indoor ranges but they don't allow much by way of action pistol type practice (moving, drawing, "rapid" fire, etc.). There are also a few outdoor ranges, but the costs are ridiculous... at least mid-$300s on up to $600 per year... with "initiation" fees of up to $250! Plus I'd have to drive quite a distance to most of them. Some require 3 seconds minimum between shots. I'm a little dumbfounded on why there aren't any reasonably prices outdoor gun clubs. Unless you have $$$ around here, I'm not sure how you get any shooting in except during matches or slowly punching static paper at indoor ranges. After the range fees, I'll have no money left over for ammo.

As a side note, there are a number of guns shops... but the prices are pretty rapey as well. Most of the gun shows are marginal in size, selection, and prices. My closest "gun shop" is Gander Mountain, which is great if you want to pay $650 for a Glock. I'm not sure exactly what I walked into down here.

Couple of thoughts, 1.01 seems short when loading for a Glock. 3.8 ish gr Be at ~1.15 met minor PF in my G17 before all the BE ran out in this area. Also what does your statement mean about full length sizing after? Using plated bullets over crimping can lead to results such as yours.

Honestly, I was loading short because I was hoping that the combo of the light loading and hollow base would still give me enough pressure to keep the bullet from dribbling out of the barrel. It's also why I stopped at 4.4 gr.

What I meant was that I use a Lee full length sizing die in the last station to crimp. I tried not to crimp to heavily -- plus the bullets are supposedly the "thick plated" version from Berry's since I originally bought these to load in .357sig. Again, I did try to crimp hard enough to ensure appropriate pressure from the lighter loads.

1.01 is extremely short. I load 124s at 1.040 and people always tell me I'm ganna blow myself up even though it has been a very safe load for me. Figure out how long you can load the bullets by backing off your seating die to where the bullets wont spin in the chamber then back it off by .050 until it finally spins. Once you find the spin point back it off another .010 and you should be good to go. FP bullets can be troublesome in some guns but for a glock you should be able to load closer to 1.080 or even 1.100 I would think.

I'll give that a try. The flat point was making it kind of difficult for me to judge how long to load the round. The hollow base does, in theory, allow me to load a bit longer since there should be more surface area than with a typical round nose. I do happen to have about 150 of the RN 124gr Berry's left, too. I didn't try them since I thought the FPHB would be more accurate.

Berry's recommends those to be seated at 1.060". I started running them longer at 1.065" and my accuracy improved a little. The only powder I use is TG. How much crimp are you applying?

As I mentioned a few lines above, I crimped hard enough to (what I assumed to) ensure a firm hold on the bullet. However, not so tight as to cut into the plating. Of course, who knows if I did that... I don't have a bullet puller so I'm not sure. I might go pick one up, load a round, pull the bullet, and see what the plating looks like. To describe the crimp... the very edge of the case mouth might ever so slightly more than parallel. In general, thought, I'd describe the crimp as not too much more than just taking the bell out of the mouth.

The theoretical advantage to the "hollow base" bullet is the hollow base will more easily obturate in the barrel.

This requires a certain amount of chamber pressure.

My guess is you haven't achieved the required chamber pressure level.

I tried some 124 Berry's 124 gr. HB FMJ's with 3.9 gr. of Tightgroup, which is a "steel" load I've used with success.

​This load, with PD/Zero/HAP 124 gr. JHP's shoots extremely well in a couple of my pistols.

The Berry's bullets were a disappointment.

At some point I may try running these bullets much hotter, with a different powder.

Quite possible. I figure the issue has to be one (or more) of the following:

(1) not enough pressure -- but loading them short at 4.4 gr of powder *should* be reasonable (I believe max is 4.8 gr)

(2) the bullets themselves are not going to work well for this application -- which is not a huge problem since I can just save them for my .357sig loads, but it means I need to buy others

(3) something is amiss with my stock barrel -- hopefully this isn't the problem. I looked into the bore and there does seem to be a light and shallow 2" longitudinal scratch in the middle of the bore but it's not very deep and it's nowhere near the crown / muzzle end.

(4) I'm loading too short

Can someone explain to me the benefits of loading long vs short with regard to accuracy? I understand that there is a different length jump to the rifling, but other than that, I was under the impression that it had more to do with feeding reliability and pressures. Since some people are suggesting that I am loading too short and others are suggesting that I'm loading too light, doesn't this contradict itself?

Thank in advance

[Kosh75287]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the C.O.A.L. seem really quite short, to me. Is there something about the plated projectiles that requires you to use such a short length?

I haven't shot enough plated projectiles to have a well-founded opinion on their performance, but I hear of shooters having more trouble with them than any other configuration. Your use of a Glock would seem, to many, to preclude the use of cast projectiles, though I've seen them work remarkably well in various Glock iterations.

I may be treading on the flag for saying this, but I've always found Bull'sEye to be "OKAY" powder for lighter loads and found that it, like most other flake powders, metered better in charges above 3.8 - 4.0 gr. I know that the .38 Spl. 2.7 - 2.8/Bull'sEye/148gr. HBWC is the stuff of which legends are made, but it always amazed me how well it worked, once I saw how it meters. A number of "wondernines" that I've shot with Bullseye reloads just didn't seem to want to function reliably until near-max charges are used.

When loading for 9mm, MY overall results in ALL contexts tends to improve when using propellants in the AA#5, Alliant Unique or Herco range. When I use powders that are slower burning, I begin to encounter problems again.

My current "go to" load for 9mm is 5.8/Herco/125FMJ/LRN w/ C.O.A.L 1.12 + 0.005" It works in everything I've run it through, including some finicky Lugers and Broomhandles. Since you have Alliant Unique, you might try developing an equivalent load with it. I would GUESS that 5.2 -5.4 gr./Unique/125 would be pretty much the same.

Lastly, I'm not very clear on what you mean by "Lee full length sizing afterward". After seating and crimping the projectile, are you full-length resizing the entire round? If so, you may be negating the crimp on the projectile, and eliminating any uniformity with which the projectile is held in the chamber when fired. This could explain your accuracy problems. If you have not tried it already, try loading the rounds as before, but FOREGO the "full length sizing afterward", and see what your accuracy is like. If you still have accuracy issues, you might consider using a taper-crimp dies in a separate step to improve things, It's extra work, but I've never seen it not improve matters.

[Kosh75287]

The longer C.O.A.L. tends to lower pressures, all other factors being equal, until the bullet contacts the lands (unusual in autopistols). Longer C.O.A.L.s tend to give the projectile less opportunity to fly aberrantly after leaving the case neck and before engaging the barrel riflling ("freebore", I think it's called), Your short C.O.A.L. may be giving a stubby projectile enough opportunity to "yaw" and "dip" that it isn't oriented "point-on" when it engages the rifling.

[IDescribe]

TacticalReload, you've made some poor, even dangerous assumptions, and you've gotten some poor, dangerous advice, the first and foremost being that this might be underpressure. It's actually overpressure. You're loads are at least +P already, if not +P+.

Alliant's max load for a 124gr GDHP with Bullseye is 4.4gr at an OAL of 1.120. At that OAL, the GDHP is seated .191 into the case mouth.

At OAL 1.010 with a Berry's HBFP, your bullet is seated .292 into the case mouth. I'm talking about the depth of insertion into the case. At max load, a difference in seating depth of 0.100 is huge.

Since Alliant's max load for that 124gr GDHP at max standard pressure is 4.4gr, and you're using a 124gr bullet seated 0.100 deeper, you should assume you are well into +P, if not +P+. Do not increase charge. You need to decrease charge.

You don't know how to determine OAL for that bullet? Google "push test OAL" and learn. That Berry's HBFP touches the rifling in my CZ-75 at 1.070. It won't touch the lands in your Glock until at least .04 longer than that, and it's in fact probably greater than .04. You should be able to load that bullet at 1.11 or longer (probably longer) for your Glock. At 1.11, your seating depth would be right at .200, which is more than deep enough into the case to hold that bullet steady. Do a push test to find out how long you can load. Don't just take my word for it and go to 1.11, but should be at least that long.

Taper crimp does NOT hold bullets in place. In taper-crimped cartridges, neck tension holds bullets in place. A taper crimp is only supposed to remove the flare that was put in when the case was belled. I have read (not experienced myself) that crimping past flush can actually reduce neck tension because as the case mouth bends inward, the case walls below that bend wants to bow outward, reducing neck tension which is what really holds the bullet in place.

If you taper-crimp more than flush with plated bullets, your accuracy will be affected negatively. Plated bullets are crimp-sensitive.

SO...

1 -- Back off on the crimp. It's not doing what you think it's doing, and it affects accuracy negatively. Plated bullets are very crimp sensitive.
2 -- Push test and determine your max OAL. You don't need tons of the bullet in the case for it to be held steady. I like to get at least 0.180 into the case mouth, but the reality some of the most accurate rounds I've loaded are 115gr JHP that are only 0.160 into the case mouth, so 0.160 is holding firmly enough. The point is that what your max OAL is with your Glock, you're likely fine in terms of how much is into the case.
3-- Drop back down on your charge weights and work back up to the point of best accuracy.

[vixty]

Put your calipers on the mouth of a loaded crimped case and see what the diameter is. We will be able to tell you how tight it is. With my crimp die I don't even tighten the stem. I leave it backed out and the die is enough to remove the bell alone. Everyone has their own system though.

[TacticalReload]

Okay... a little update. First off, thanks for all the input. I appreciate it.

I took a decapped and sized case, put a slight bell on it, and pushed in a bullet to an OAL of 1.120. Here is what it looks like next to the same bullet:

Maybe I'm just not used to seeing a FP bullet in 9mm, but it seems too long with too little bullet sitting inside the case. However, if as little as 0.160 is enough, then it should put enough bullet into the case. I'm not sure how this profile, loaded to this length, will feed. Probably okay in the factory Glock barrel, I guess. It fed during hand-cycling. Note, in the pic, that I obviously did NOT crimp yet.

I seated it down to 1.110" and crimped it at the same setting I've been doing. Then I pulled the bullet. Here is what it looks like:

You can see a light ring; but it's not very deep, and it's absolutely not cutting through the plating.

I have to apologize for using the term "full length sizing"... I should have been calling it the Lee factory crimp die. It's my understanding that it does size the case as well. This is what I use at the 4th station of my Dillon 550 with 9mm instead of just a taper crimp die.

If I load to an OAL of 1.155, I can still get it to chamber, although I'm not sure how much room I have left before the rifling (probably none). If I go much longer, the round won't fit in the magazine.

As for +P and +P+ pressures, it's certainly possible. However, I'm not seeing much by way of over-pressure signs. The recoil / report is at most still no more substantial than factory American Eagle I was also shooting that day. The primers have extruded marks where they flowed into the firing pin hole, but this happens for me with Federal primers even if the loads are very light. The 3.3gr loads barely cleared the breach... one of them literally popped out and stayed resting on top of the slide near the front cutout. Keep in mind that these are hollow base bullets so there is a significant void in the bottom of the bullet that increases the inner volume. When I loaded the 4.4gr with XTP bullets, I backed the OAL out to what was specified in my manual.

As for the "push test", I can get a round that is "too long to fit in the mag" to chamber so it would seem that my restriction in OAL is going to be related to the magazine, at least for this profile bullet.

There is an IDPA match tomorrow morning. I'm thinking that I might just use the standard RN that I have left, combined with Unique loaded literally "by the book". I don't have time to get to the range again to experiment any more before then. However, in two weeks, there is a non-Glock-sanctioned GSSF indoor style match. If I can't work up a load that groups instead of patterns at 10 yards, I don't stand much of a chance of hitting anything at 25 yards.

[Hi-Power Jack]

May not be the problem, but looks to me like you're belling the

case a little more than you have to .... and possibly crimping

a little too much - I'd back off the crimp a quarter turn and see

if it still feeds.

[vixty]

Back the crimp off .5 turns or even a full turn. All you want to do is make sure the round chambers. All your doing is removing the bell not trying to hold the bullet in. The resizing of the case is what holds the bullet in place.

[IDescribe]

Yeah, you're belling a bit too much.

And agreed, back off crimp a quarter turn, maybe two, maybe a full turn. Whatever it takes to get the crimp to just disappear. If you can measure the crimp with calipers, measure exactly at the case mouth, AND measure with the thin bladed tips of the calipers. Don't straddle the case mouth back in the jaws or that will give you a reading an eighth of an inch behind the case mouth. Look for .377. That's a safe bet.

FCD dies can cause problems where there are none. Remember that it doesn't resize just the case. There's a bullet inside that case pushing back. If it's not set up right, it can swage the bullet, create accuracy problems.

You're not going to see over-pressure signs in pistol the way you will in rifle. You MIGHT see them. But it is not a reliable tool. And while, yes, the cavity does offset the reduction in OAL a little, remember that that cavity back also increases the shank length, which increases friction, which slows down acceleration, which increases pressure. Regardles, though, there's no reason to have your OAL that short. Get it out to 1.11/1.12 and work from there. You'll be fine.

At OAL 1.11 with that bullet, I'm guessing just about anything over 4.0 grains will get you over the minor PF floor.

Edited February 12, 2016 by IDescribe

[gm iprod]

Firstly get rid of the factory crimp die and use a taper crimp die instead, I have always had an improvement in accuracy with 9mm buy doing just this.

The as suggested above less bell, minimal crimp load to between 1.1 and 1.125" with that flat nose.

[TacticalReload]

Fair enough. I'll go back to the regular crimp die instead and see if it makes a difference. The point about possibly swaging the bullet is something I didn't consider. This might be even more of an issue since I was using hollow base bullets that probably compress more easily. That being said, I don't think it was doing much by way of actually "sizing" the finished round based on the tension I was feeling through the lever as I was pushing the rounds up into the die.

Somehow, I knew I was going to get some grief about how much I was belling the case. I don't usually use so much, but the powder die spun a little bit more than I wanted it to when I locked it down, and I was too lazy to fix it since I didn't think it would make much of a difference considering the crimp takes the belling out of the case anyway.

I'm also probably just going to go back to a standard 124 gr RN bullet and work up a load with that since, when I buy more bullets, I'm going to probably go with some version of coated RN. In fact, I might even go up to 147 gr anyway.

[IDescribe]

ACME 147gr NLG. Consider it.

[Kosh75287]

Firstly get rid of the factory crimp die and use a taper crimp die instead, I have always had an improvement in accuracy with 9mm buy doing just this.

+1, BIGTIME. I can use and tolerate Lee LCDs MOST of the time, though they're never NOT more trouble for me to set up correctly.

I'm also not naive enough to believe that taper-crimping in a separate operation is some panacea, but it HAS solved a great many accuracy and function problems for ME, on occasion, when nothing else would.

[ToddKS]

Your factory barrel may just not shoot plated bullets well. I have a G17 that is that way. Slower burning powder made it better, but still not what I needed. Try some jacketed bullets if you have some sitting around.

Apply some of the loading tips you have received to a different bullet and see if that changes anything.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

[gm iprod]

Kosh75287, I can't tolerate them in any way, I just have this mental block about sizing a case after the bullet is seated, just gives me the willys.

The general rule I apply to all 9mm handguns that do not shoot well with reloads is as follows.

Test on factory 115gr or 125gr RN, see how it groups and functions. If OK, then look at the loads.

Start with 115gr and or 125gr FMJ (real jacketed not plated or coated) see how it groups with the powders you have, if OK, then look at what projectiles you are using previously. Do not over flare, do not use LeeFCD, do not seat long or short, stay close to factory OAL or reccommended OAL from load manual for the projectile in use. Once working, establish longer or shorter OAL for what you intend to do.

Then mess with the powder.

Lee std carbide size dies, and some others, tend to size the case parrallel for a longer portion of the case. This can stress the area ahead of the case head more than I like, but it does give the Glock Bulge a good whack. Dillon and RCBS Carbide dies seem to less heavy work in that area, but still size the Glock Guppy out well enough. I have also gone to Roll Sizing any brass fired in unsupported or semi supported Production Type firearms. I seem to be getting a lot of brass that is not from my gun in my practice bin and either sort it out and recycle or roll size and problems disappear.

[Steve RA]

Use the "Plunk Test" to determine best overall length with any bullet. Then, make sure it will run in your magazine/magazines.

[NateTSU]

Tag

-future reference

[TacticalReload]

I just realized that I never updated the thread with my results in case anyone cares. I switched out the factory crimp die with a standard one, loaded longer, and took a lot of the belling out of the powder drop station. I know I changed multiple things as once, but I'm impatient. Regardless, it worked out... the loads are now as accurate as I figure a factory Glock can be so I'm happy. Thanks to everyone for your help.