Rifle And Shotgun Classifications

[Charles Bond]

The USPSA Board of Directors is considering offering classifications in rifle and in shotgun. Of course this process will take some time while we develop some classification data on which to base the process but if we do not start this, we can never do it. My feeling is that this would broaden the sport such that we could host rifle only or shotgun only matches and give clubs additional match opportunties. We would also have more to offer shooters who for whatever reason do not desire to shoot pistols and this would pave the way for some cross overs from the sporting clays and high power shooters. I also thing the possiblities of new sponsor activity is endless. I would welcome your opinions on this topic and encourage each member of USPSA to contact their Area Director and USPSA President with their comments on this topic.

Charles Bond

Area 6 Director

cvbond1@attglobal.net

[MikeFoley]

I think we should classify on long guns. Since it is inevitable that this will come up, what classification do you give in 3Gun with someone who is way better with any one of the guns than the others? My club shoots 3Gun every month at our USPSA match, and we would be happy to try some things, maybe a beta test of sorts.

[stingerjg]

I think its a great idea. How would that work in a 3gun match. if you had a 'C' class pistol, 'B' class rifle, and 'A' class shotgun. how would that work?

[hoodhazard]

This is long overdue.You can't be but one class lower than your highest class of a particular weapon,naturally.And standards must be decided upon.(Classifiers)Having shot a shotgun match and putting one on for several years I suspect the top 3gunners input would be the horses mouth.

[George]

You would probably want a multi-gun classification too.

To start, you could review the US3G results for the last 3-4 years and assign existing members according to their placements there as the last few years have had individual and combo stages. Same goes for the Area Championship 3 gun match databases from the last few years.

This would provide something akin to true classification rankings for the multi-gun aggregates at USPSA multi-gun tournaments and still allow single long gun classifications in accordance with world IPSC style shotgun and rifle only matches.

You can't just lump the long guns and you have to recognize that proficiency with all three is different than with any single one.

Doesn't sound like much other than some number crunching on existing data to get started and a refinement of the pistol only procedures as you go. Not difficult, just needs to be acted upon. Heck, anyone could run the initial rankings in Excel by downloading archived results from the USPSA website.

--

Regards,

[Larry White]

As of now we cant score two power factors(major pistol/minor rifle or minor rifle/major shotgun) in multi gun stages and you want to throw classes into the mix? Lets just fix the mess we have now before we open another can of worms.----Larry

[springy]

The USPSA Board of Directors is considering offering classifications in rifle and in shotgun.    Of course this process will take some time while we develop some classification data on which to base the process but if we do not start this, we can never do it.  My feeling is that this would broaden the sport such that we could host rifle only or shotgun only matches and give clubs additional match opportunties.  We would also have more to offer shooters who for whatever reason do not desire to shoot pistols and this would pave the way for some cross overs from the sporting clays and high power shooters.  I also thing the possiblities of new sponsor activity is endless.  I would welcome your opinions on this topic and encourage each member of USPSA to contact their Area Director and USPSA President with their comments on this topic.

Charles Bond

Area 6 Director

cvbond1@attglobal.net

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Matthew_Mink]

How would this benefit anybody?

[shred]

While I agree with Matt ("What is this trying to do?"), were I to do it, what I'd do is:

Get each of the top-5 (or 8 or 10) "masters" in a discipline (Rifle, Shotgun), and have them each send in a training drill, along with "best I've ever done" and "I can do this all day long" scores. Assign those to 100% and 85% respectively. Repeat as needed.

[George]

Not sure of all the benefits, but it would line up with world IPSC and allow USPSA rifle and shotgun only events to not just use the pistol classifications like they mean anything with the long guns.

[Charles Bond]

In reply to Mr. Mink's question as to how it would benefit anyone...I think it has the potential to bring new members to USPSA. Despite how well you shoot a long gun now, you must shoot a pistol to be classified. Now I know most of us die hard USPSA folks shoot all 3 but just as we have members who will shoot pistol only, I think we have potential members who will never pick up a pistol but would like to come and play with a rifle or scattergun. Under the present system, they are welcome but as we all know, the "U" shooter either gets classified or doesn't last long.

Increased membership is like the rising tide--it lifts all boats. More members are more range staff, more match directors, more shooters for larger matches and more members to offset fixed costs saving us dues increases to the present membership. We also have a hook into new sponsors such as Winchester, Remington, Benelli and others who while they may participate at some level currently are likely to step up to the plate in a much bigger way.

USPSA stands for United States Practicial Shooting Association and not United States Pistol Shooting Association. We have the depth and infrastructure to make this happen and if we do not, I fear it will be an opportunity lost.

Charles Bond

[shred]

Is there any hard data on how many USPSA rifle-only or shotgun-only matches are held or would be held? How many shooters actually want to play in only those disciplines? "Might bring in new shooters" is great.. if they're out there and they come.

I for one have not heard anybody say "if only I could do this with a rifle.. " or "if only I could do this with a shotgun.." when they wander by our local matches or gun-show tables.

Personally I'd rather USPSA put its limited efforts into attracting more pistol shooters-- we all know there are a lot of pistol shooters that have never heard of USPSA but get hooked as soon as they shoot a match.

[Chriss Grube]

I don't see where this is worth wasteing the time on. Louie sold out his rifle match and there are a ton of new shooters. It's not like bubba is going to show up with his sporting clays gun and shoot the local monthly match. The pistol stages are very often not able to be shot with a shotgun or rifle so where is this big gain in people? You open a whole new set of problems for 3 gun with everybody being in a different class for each gun then coming up with a winner overall, then each class. Want to change the system great you are classed as one class not this one class lower stuff. If you're a GM in Open you're a GM in everything else.

[Charles Bond]

I don't see where this is worth wasteing the time on. Louie sold out his rifle match and there are a ton of new shooters. It's not like bubba is going to show up with his sporting clays gun and shoot the local monthly match. The pistol stages are very often not able to be shot with a shotgun or rifle so where is this big gain in people? You open a whole new set of problems for 3 gun with everybody being in a different class for each gun then coming up with a winner overall, then each class. Want to change the system great you are classed as one class not this one class lower stuff. If you're a GM in Open you're a GM in everything else.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Chris I think you see things as they presently exist and wonder if we are doing it wrong. At our pistol matches we award by division and class. Why should we do it differnetly in shotgun and rifle? And if you think about it, I am sure you can come up with example of shooter after shooter who is much more gifted with a rifle or shotgun than they are with a pistol. Any you are right that no sporting clays gun is going to win a local match but the sporting clays shooters are comfortable shooting a shotgun. If we hand them a 9 shot auto, they know what to do with it when the start signal is given and they are already shooting competition events which in my experience puts us at least a third of the way there.

[Charles Bond]

Is there any hard data on how many USPSA rifle-only or shotgun-only matches are held or would be held?  How many shooters actually want to play in only those disciplines?  "Might bring in new shooters" is great.. if they're out there and they come. 

I for one have not heard anybody say "if only I could do this with a rifle.. " or "if only I could do this with a shotgun.." when they wander by our local matches or gun-show tables.

Personally I'd rather USPSA put its limited efforts into attracting more pistol shooters-- we all know there are a lot of pistol shooters that have never heard of USPSA but get hooked as soon as they shoot a match.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The people telling me they want this are match directors who have new interest in 3 gun shooting arising from SHOOTING USA. Obviously, if there is no market for this the clubs would not be asking for it. If it is offered and the shooters do not come, the club will discontinue the effort but what I see overall are clubs adding match days for 3 gun.

As to marketing, it makes sense to me that if we can suck in a sporting clays shooter or a high power shooter to a long gun match and they enjoy it, they will hook up with a sidearm and come back to the pistol match.

I can not tell why you think we would put our "limited efforts" into attracting more pistol shooters. We are US Practical Shooting and that includes weapons other than pistols. Besides, we beat IDPA to the punch http://www.brianenos.com/forums/style_imag...icons/icon1.gif

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/style_imag...icons/icon1.gif

[Flexmoney]

I am mixed.

On the for it side... Try running a few pistol matches without classifers and see how many shooters you start to lose.

[edited to make sense ]

[Chriss Grube]

Well unless we start having a bunch of Rifle or shotgun only matches then it will be a waste of time and complicate the 3 gun matches. Hell I'm all for more matches but lets face it there are only so many weekends, clubs and help. Not to mention that most matches now whack you a 100 bucks or more. Area 8 lost the MASC and tri state already this year because the host clubs are doing the A8 and summer blast. It MIGHT bring in a couple people but there is a big difference in shooting regular shotgun or hipower and USPSA matches. PA has 1 million people in the woods with guns to go whack a deer, but we sure don't see them at matches. Different sport different mentality.

[George]

We run long gun only multi-gun IPSC matches at our club and currently we disregard classifications as the pistol rankings are not always indicative of who will do how well with the longer guns.

Turnout size at the club level is an issue with recognizing classes as the only C shooter is always the first C shooter ;-)

I see it being an asset at Area and National level matches. There are a few dedicated rifle and shotgun affairs out there, I wish there were more. I think it would make sense for the US3G and other USPSA multi-gun matches if you assesed combo stage skills by class too.

Let's face it, the USPSA rulebook IS complicated and thats OK as long as the rules make sense. This is actually right in line with what is already in it, not something new. This is just a defining process for something presently ignored to a greater degree than actually dealt with.

--

Regards,

[TeamGE]

A multigun classification is the only one that makes sence. A classification for each long gun would be a nightmare to score, (even more then it is already) not to mention take a very long time to get. Actual classifier stages should include the use of multiguns, and standings at major matches count just like a pistol match does now.

[Jim Norman]

We run a "sidematch" at two local clubs, One is Shotgun, the other is generally rifle, but occasioinally shotgun. This is on top of 5-7 pistol stages. While a seperate classification would be nioce, I don't see us setting up two side matches, one a lame classifier stage and the other a run& gun real stage. I say lame, because lets be honest, the classifer stages, while they test a certain skill, are a practicable stage and generally do not reflect the stages we see at a match. If we were to have classifications, they should come from actual matches and you'd get your rank based upon your real world performance. Might take longer to sort out and maybe fewer people would bother, but it would represent the real world results.

Also as Chriss said, just how many additional matches can we put on? Where are we going to get the days, the staff, the crew, and the venues? Not to mention, where will we get all these additional shooters?

Currently, I can shoot an action match every week if I don't mind driving a bit. Even if I wanted to run an additional match, say a Rifle only match, I would need to shut down my club for a day. that would not make the balance of the members happy, they sort of like coming out and just banging away. Keep in mind, not everyone is head over heels into competition. A lot of people want to sit and simply shoot to see how tight a group they can make, or how many clays they can break in a row. Others like ringing steel or knock-down steel (PSA style). Many of our own shooters also like other disciplines. Personally, I had to choose to no longer shoot high-power rifle. All three local venues occur on USPSA match days. I can't shoot Cowboy for hte same reason. I currently look at what time I get up on one Sunday to decide whether or not I will shoot steel or drive an additional 60 miles to an IPSC match. If the weather is slightly of, steel wins, if I get up late steel wins.

Having said all this, if every club runs a single rifle or shotgun stage every month, and it brings in enough additional shooters that the entire match has to rotate through the "sidematch stage" then we can start to explore this a bit more. Truthfully, if we were to switch from single gun matches to multi-gun or three gun matches I'd thing this would make mnore sense. Running a 6 stage match, two each of Rifle, Pistol and Shotgun, and alternate the classifer stage, then you'd have something, but this would so radically change the face or USPSA that it would be a whole new organization.

While I support and love shooting rifle and shotgun in a action setting, I am not sure that we would realize a net gain if we were to dedicate our limited resources towards growning the additonal two groups. As it stands now, I would work hard to get pistol membership over 20k and then think again. As long as we only have the low membership numbers we currently have, we have not reached a critical mass. That should be our first aim.

So, all this having been said, I would do the following, use pistol classification as we currently do for pistol matches and the USPSA multi-gun/3-gun. At rifle only or Shotgun only, I would think about using the Lewis System. Call it IPSC welfare or whatever, but untill we reach some very wide number of people, say inthe tens of thousands, we are simply not going to see enough time on the range to make classifications in Rifle and Shotgun as seperate classes viable.

Jim

[cking]

not sure it will help, but it won't hurt anything either and I do think it might help with the sponsor aspect.

So have at it.

[bgary]

I have to ask the same questions here that I asked of the Board, when Charles brought this up:

Does it make any sense for a shooter to have 10 or 12 or 15 (or more) separate classifications?

-- Pistol: Open / Limited / Limited-10 / Production / Revolver

-- Rifle: Open / Tactical / Standard (Limited) / MOR Open / MOR Standard

-- Shotgun: Open / Standard / Production

-- Tournament: Open / Tactical / Limited

-- Multi-gun: Open / Tactical / Limited / Heavy Metal? / HM-Optics? / HM-Irons?

-- ??? / ??? / ??? / ...

At some point, one has to wonder how this would work from a pragmatic perspective. Take a multi-gun match for example:

If I have different classifications in rifle and shotgun, will I be scored differently on a pistol/rifle stage than I would on a pistol/shotgun stage?

What if my "pistol" classification is different than my "multi-gun" classification - which should be used on a pistol-only stage at a multi-gun match?

What if, as another person has noted, a shooter has vastly different skills? For example, I have a friend who is a B-class pistol shooter but arguably a GM with long-guns. Should he now be considered an M at every pistol match he shoots, just because his classifications can't be more than one class apart?

I "get" that we want to bring in more rifle and shotgun shooters. I "get" that this could be good for the membership, and the org. I just can't "get" how we would make this work in a way that makes sense.... at some level, it makes more sense to me to believe that we should classify the skill of the *shooter*, independent of the equipment he/she chooses to put in his hands.

Bruce

[TeamGE]

I agree Bruce,

A shooters skill using all three guns at the same time would be the only classification that could be tested, and implemented. We already have other shooting sports that use one gun at a time. 3gun is about all three, not one at a time.

[tightloop]

What is wrong with the KISS idea....No classes, everyone shoot headsup.....if that offends some people, let them play pool, poker or run track and field....people need to realize that not everyone can win..and stop classifying everything so there are mulitple winners in each class...try to find what you are good at and then do it...we all are not good at the same things...

[Flexmoney]

TL,

The heads up idea would be simple.

But, I have found that shooters (pistol) are into the classification process. Between being on here, being a Section Coordinator, and jsut being at the range...I get plenty of feedback from shooters. I can say, without a doubt, that shooters get pissed off when they go to a match and the classifier stage is setup wrong (and can't be sent in), or the match is running a discontinued classifer.

Shooters work toward moving up.