Rifle And Shotgun Classifications

[George]

Beven is right, the multi-gun classification makes sense. The rest do not at present considering the realities.

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Regards,

[Rifter]

Not sure if anyone cares about a newbies view, but I am going to post it anyway. :-) My buddy and I both have AR15s. Mine is pretty tricked out. It was really built to compete with him, for long range. Well, we then discovered 3-gun and by extension USPSA. (I now have a pistol and am a member)

I, for one, really like this idea. I like shooting. This could add spice to the matches, and make them more intersting, and fun. In the local match I went to last week, there was a shotgun side match, and that looked like a lot of fun. I believe, if done right, this could be a large draw. If it is sanctioned by USPSA, people will use it. Maybe not as much as pistol, but it would still be avilable. I really liked the idea someone else posted, about a possible match set up with 2 pistol, 2 shotgun and 2 rifle stages. It mixes things up, allows you to use other skills.

Now, as for the rules. I agree with the above poster, with the KISS principle, but I think he may be keeping it too simple. :-) I could see something along the lines of an open (all the bells and whistles) and limited (say, 1 optic... the equivalent of tactical). then, run the pistol GM, M, A,B,C,D classifications.

Once you figure out what you want to do, it is easier to figure out how to do it.

[Jim Norman]

If we have a classification system, then we must administer it, we must run classifier stages, they must be set-up correctly. If on the otherhand, for 3-gun and Multi-gun, we just shoot heads up, I can't see a real problem. The top dogs will win regardless and the rest of us win pretty much by chance.

What our club has done on other than IPSC is to use the Lewis system and pay three levels, several deep. both how deep and how many levels is determined by how many people shoot in a division. In 3-gun, we have Limited and Tactical only, No Open, but it is not an IPSC style match. In Steel we have Autos and revolvers, open and limited as well as rimfire optic and iron.

Prizes are awarded by drawing, cash is paid order of finish on the Lewis System.

In other discussions we have seen where everyone or virtually everyone wants to see the heads up order of finish as well as the Divisional results, so why not just go heads up and be done with it.

Anyone want to set up a 300 yard classifier for rifle? Oh Wait, we only have 100 yards, how about shotgun, Opps sorry, can't run shotgun at this club, maybe... Well you get the picture.

K.I.S.S. Just set up and run the match, I don't thing that the High-power shooters or the clays shooters or the bullseye guys for the most part are going to suddenly run out and join us. They shoot their sport, we shoot ours.

Jim

[tightloop]

The problem with sanctioning 3 gun matches withclassifers et al....is the relatively few clubs with the ability to hold rifle matches with even 100 yd ranges...then there is the problem with the rifle and shotgunners not getting along...then the geezer factor (Bayou Rifles as an example in Houston)....administration of classifiers, scoring by classes, whining about sandbagging, and the final one is the avaliable time....one weekend for USPSA, one for IDPA, one for SASS, one for trap/skeet, one for clays, one for three gun, one for tactical rifle/carbine, you get the picture...Most of these shooting sports will never have 10's of thousands of members with a few exceptions....the other guys will have their own advocates, but reality dictates that they just find a club that likes to shoot what they do and then GO there to shoot it...

The action pistol games, shotgun, and rifle shooters each have their own range needs and most of them cannot coexist at the same time....at the same range...Just my thoughts...I love to shoot, but I don;'t think that it is a good idea for USPSA to undertake the admin of classifying 3 gun , rifle and shotgunners....

[Flexmoney]

Along the lines of KISS...

If we were to go with a 3-gun classification system, perhaps we could borrow a page from our brothers in IDPA. Design one basic classifier stage?

[Jim Norman]

Ok,

The challenge is:

A classifier stage using a shotgun, a pistol AND a rifle. The stage has to fit on a 100 yard range. It must test the target aquisiton skills, reloading, and weapons transitions. It can't take more than 60 minutes to set up and it must not require anything beyond what a local club currentlyhas in its stock of props.

It should also work for Open, Limited and Tactical divisions.

Shoot is once a year for classification. Your score is your class. You can shoot it as often as you like, I love to shoot against paper class shooters as opposed to people that can really shoot

Jim

[Charles Bond]

We are seeing many good comments and thoughts here. Keep in mind that this is not going to solve what to do with multigun which barely exists aside from the nationals each year. Clubs for the most part want to run three gun not multigun matches because they are altogether a simpler operation.

I have yet to have any shooter or match director tell me we have too many classifications. All the members I know stide to have classifications in divisions they rarely shoot. Check out the fact that our members who are classified in revolver far exceed the number who ever shoot revolver at any match.

Having classifications in long guns makes us all about all practicial shooting and not just about pistol shooting. We would no longer treat long guns as the red headed step child of our sport.

[Flexmoney]

Keep in mind that this is not going to solve what to do with multigun which barely exists aside from the nationals each year.  Clubs for the most part want to run three gun not multigun matches ...

Well, that hasn't been my experience.

[George]

Howsabout a rifle and shotgun-slug standard, maybe the Prez type drills mentioned elsewhere here for each. Plus a simple comstock speed shoot with "maybe" some movement involved, maybe not (look at the existing pistol classifiers for ideas here).

The shotgun speedshoot could involve poppers and stationary clays and the rifle one could be on some hard covered paper close to as far out as is deemed appropriate to simulate a little bit-o-distance (not every club is going to have rifle steel and a 100+ yard bay available).

Forget testing with combo stages and transitions, you get a re-classification on that from shooting sanctioned matches with combo stages in them (the San Angelo 3gun should be a USPSA classifier as they use USPSA scoring exactly right for multi-gun). The pistol classification is then averaged with each individual long gun score submitted and eventually you get a classification that is a real blend of all your abilities, but combo classifiers and the resultant hassles are not needed IMHO.

This gives you a simple set of stages that can be run as long gun only sidematches at regular pistol matches very easily. Keep the round counts low and no one will need special gear to be competitive in the classifiers and they can just show up with a box of shells, a gun and some eyes and ears to shoot it.

This also allows a shooter to garner a specific long gun classification that could travel to a world IPSC shotgun or rifle only match with them. Not a big thing for a lot of folks, but a thing we should consider nonetheless.

Just some initial thoughts, anyone with more, or different ideas, other than non-specific negative waves without constructive criticism/commentary?

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Regards,

[Larry White]

OK Mr Bond, want to know what I want? I want Multi gun rules and scoring off the table and fixed, sooner than later. It shows that you havent been reading the threads on this forum about this subject. Multigun hardly exists in USPSA because of the rules and scoring problems and the mindset of some of the BOD who wont address them. Fix that and then worry about classification if you want, but most of the shooters I talk with could care less about rifle and shotgun classifers. We want to shoot 3 gun multi gun stages under a good set of rules with a scoring system that works. Spent a few hours on this forum reading about 3 gun rules and San Anglo scoring. My USPSA renewal and recertifaction package have been here on the desk for two weeks but every time I reach for them I get to thinking how bassackwards this org. has become. Lots of good multi gun orgs out there holding good safe matches that are growing every year and we still got the hind tit. Fix what we want and need.----Larry

[Sam]

Hello, Charles. Having a classification system for long guns is OK by me. A large number of our members probably don't shoot anything but pistol on a regular basis. So, having a few more classifiers to deal with may not be a very heavy load. I'd keep the classifiers few and simple. For members who choose not to get classified with long guns, I recommend assigining a minimum of one class below the highest held with a pistol. It would just seem odd to have a Master class pistol shooter shooting "C" class with anything. (and I'm sure there would be howls of displeasure by the peanut gallery) Personally, I would probably work toward a classification with both shotgun and rifle.

It could bring some new people into the sport.

[Charles Bond]

OK Mr Bond, want to know what I want? I want Multi gun rules and scoring  off the table and fixed, sooner than later. It shows that you havent been reading the threads on this forum about this subject. Multigun hardly exists in USPSA because of the rules and scoring problems and the mindset of some of the BOD who wont address them. Fix that and then worry about classification if you want, but most of the shooters I talk with could care less about rifle and shotgun classifers. We want to shoot 3 gun  multi gun stages under a good set of rules with a scoring system that works. Spent a few hours on this forum reading about 3 gun rules and San Anglo scoring. My USPSA renewal and recertifaction package have been here on the desk for two weeks but every time I reach for them I get to thinking how bassackwards this org. has become. Lots of good multi gun orgs out there holding good safe matches that are growing every year and we still got the hind tit. Fix what we want and need.----Larry

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Larry--I am sorry you feel that USPSA is not being attentive to the needs of multigun. At least in USPSA you have elected representatives to respond to you and Texas has a fine AD by the name of Ken Hicks.

You may be correct that we would have more multigun if we had better rules but the fact is that we have only one major multigun match a year and hardly any club participation. Three gun on the other hand is a regular event at our clubs and we have a growing number of major matches so it appears to me that USPSA must place the most emphasis where there exists the most interest.

Note that I am not adverse to an overhaul of multigun but it does not make sense to hold one idea hostage until the needs of a smaller group of shooters is addressed.

[Flexmoney]

You may be correct that we would have more multigun if we had better rules but the fact is that we have only one major multigun match a year and hardly any club participation.

Charles, that just isn't the reality. We had a Michigan State match two years ago that was multigun. Same club hosted the Area 5 3-gun last year (but held it as 3-gun, because of the limiting USPSA rules.)

We had a club in the Ohio Section that ran a monthly multigun match all of last year. This year, they scaled it back to about 4 matches.

In Ohio (I am the SC), we have a handful of clubs that are interested in multi-gun, but I really don't have much to take them to close the deal for USPSA.

[kurtm]

I'll stay out of this one as I'm sure I've alienated most of you about the "magazine restriction" idea for limited and tactical, but I just must say that I just find it kind of odd that a U can so thourghly trounce Ms and Gms when it comes to all 3, either way ( 3-gun or multigun). As for Multigun barely existing, it has been well and fine since 1980, but I digress. It would be darn hard to really classify 3-gun/multigun when some of the best 3 gunners aren't even USPSA members. As for IPSC classification, I don't think they do it for long guns, If they did I don't think I would be a U; with a shotgun at least I think I'll let Larry tackle this bear as we are on the same page! KURTM

[Larry White]

Little or no club participation? Never will be as long as the screwed rules make it almost impossible to put on a good multi gun match. By the way, how many USPSA shotgun or rifle matches last year? None that I know of. We do 8 or 10 3 guns a year but mostly multi gun rules, want to guess why? San Anglo tx has put on a really good multi gun match for the last several years(Tx 3 Gun Championship) but I understand that this year they ditched USPSA, want to guess why? There is a good sized core of 3 gunners out there who will not shoot USPSA matches, want to guess why? You want to attract members and shooters? There they are. As soon as the sporting clays bunch find out we load more than 2 shells at a time they run for the hills. As soon as the rifle shooters learn that we put targets where they cant see them all at once they follow the sporting clays shooters. I know Mr. Hicks and his thoughts on this subject. But Ken didnt kick this puppy, You did.-----Larry

[George]

As for IPSC classification, I don't think they do it for long guns

Hi Kurt,

I don't think World IPSC is utilizing the ICS (International Classification System) for the long guns "yet", but rule 6.7 in 2004 Rifle & 2004 Shotgun specifies that the ICS may be utilized and that competitors seeking an international classification must use the approved courses of fire. So the wording is in place as far as I can see, which I believe means that the intention is there to establish it's usage at some point in the near future.

Anyone from IPSC able to chime in here?

-----------------------------------------------

BTW, this is a USPSA match administration issue and it doesn't apply to matches that at present utilize Time+ and IMG rules so there really is no contention there. For the record, I think a multi-gun classification in USPSA is not an un-desireable thing from a number of standpoints.

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Regards,

[Charles Bond]

Little or no club participation? Never will be as long as the screwed rules make it almost impossible to put on a good multi gun match. By the way, how many USPSA shotgun or rifle matches last year? None that I know of. We do 8 or 10 3 guns a year but mostly multi gun rules, want to guess why? San Anglo tx has put on a really good multi gun match for the last several years(Tx 3 Gun Championship) but I understand that this year they ditched USPSA, want to guess why? There is a good sized core of 3 gunners out there who will not shoot USPSA matches, want to guess why? You want to attract members and shooters? There they are. As soon as the sporting clays bunch find out we load more than 2 shells at a time they run for the hills. As soon as the rifle shooters learn that we put targets where they cant see them all at once they follow the sporting clays shooters. I know Mr. Hicks and his thoughts on this subject. But Ken didnt kick this puppy, You did.-----Larry

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And Larry is right -- I kicked the long gun classification puppy. I did not kick the multigun rules puppy and the two are not related since rifle and shotgun classifications will neither improve nor harm multigun. It may only be a regional thing but in the south east USPSA is all we have for three gun matches so we do not have an outlaw element shooting matches with make it up as you go rules. We will have at least 4 sectional three guns matches this year in the south east, the USPSA Shotgun Championship, and an Area 3 Gun and all of these matches are growing. If San Anglo ditched USPSA, that is up to the Texas SC and your AD to address. The only issue I am bringing for consideration is long gun classifications.

[Larry White]

And Charles is right, I hijacked his thread, and long gun classification will neither harm or improve multi gun (maybe) or much of anything else. I just think that to establish the data base and develop the stages are a lot of work for the impact it will have. Spend the time and money where its needed more, and multigun is one of those places.-----Larry

[xsrdx]

Kurt, If you'd join USPSA and shoot a pistol classifier or two, you'd lose that "U". We all know you're a closet GM so maybe the joke is on you, sandbagger?

I think you sort out USPSA multigun first and grow it, then worry about how to classify long gun shooters. Statistically, if you look at match results the best multigun shooters all tend to be pretty good pistoleros anyway and the results usually line up pretty well with the pistol qualification.

While there may be folks (like me) that favor long guns, the disparity is not enough for me to want/need some additional classification. The point has already been made regarding "where do you find the time", and accurately.

Finally, someone brought up range limitations. Very few local clubs have the ability to shoot past 100yds, let alone for more than one stage. Shooting pistol stages with a rifle/carbine is fun for awhile, but soon feels like kissing your sister.

I don't see enough demand at the local level for exclusive long gun matches, or even multigun, to make this worthwhile- yet.

[xsrdx]

It would be darn hard to really classify 3-gun/multigun when some of the best 3 gunners aren't even USPSA members. KURTM

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmmm.... Voigt, Cooley, Butler, Burkett, Salmon, West, MILLER, Hill, MILLER, Piatt, Clark, Rhodes, Holmes, Cramblit, Neal.

Actually, I think you and your brother might be it?

[BillL223]

We ran a USPSA Rifle Match at Topton last year (and will again 5/29/2005). Looking at Open class, the most popular at this match, we had 40 shooters, 34 with pistol clasifications. One GM shot 86.43%, 4 M averaged 89.20%, 6 A averaged 78.60%, 11 B averaged 64.72%, 11 C averaged 52.85%, 6 U averaged 68.88%. Think the correlation between these results and classification bracket percentages indicates that we don't need a long gun classification.I have shot several non USPSA long gun matches that use the Lewis system and have been pleasantly surprised when I fouind out that my 23rd overall actually paid out!!

[tightloop]

Lewis Class is usually a joke...at least it has been in my experience with it in clays tournaments...

[chendersby]

I think it is great to try to attract the long gun only guys to USPSA. But in my opinion a classification system is a little premature. To get these guys shooting with us requires clubs willing to set up quality rifle and shotgun only matches. I believe at this point there is not enough people attending local multi gun and single longgun matches for a classification to be worthwile. At Norco when we do a club 3gun match 20 shooters is a huge turnout. And we have a lot of 3gun shooters in So Cal. I think a better use of USPSA time and $ would be in helping clubs promote matches and give them a scoring system and a set of rules that all work together. The fact we have a classification system is not going to be the thing that attracts shooters. GOOD MATCHES ATTRACT SHOOTERS. When the nunbers of competitors grows a classification system my be worthwhile but until then you shoot for overall.

[chendersby]

And another thing...

No classification system has not had much of a negative affect on attendance at the SMM3gun match! Again great matches attract shooters not classes and trophies.

[Larry White]

Chris, are you running USPSA 3 gun rules? Here in Corpus Christi when we started to use multigun rules our 3 gun took off. Our 3gun matches out draw pistol matches by 12 to 15 shooters. Lack of a classification hasnt hurt the sponsership at multigun matches either, just look at the prize tables at SMM 3gun, Rocky Mountain and the DPMS match. Too bad some just dont get it.----Larry