Mags must start on table. Can't use Mag Pouches

[waktasz]

There was a stage like this at Area 8 last year and I asked this same question, referencing "freestyle". I got shut down. In the grand scheme of things they had barrels placed where I didn't have to think about pocketing mags in the pouches, but it would have been nice to have options.

Wait. Did this stage at A8 say you couldn't use your pouches after the start?

There were two stages where your mags started off your body. The one on the large corner bay you weren't allowed to put the mags in your pouches afterwards. I asked.

On second thought...maybe it was the VA/MD sectional. I'm looking through my videos to figure out which match and which stage # it was

[waktasz]

It was stage 5 at the 2015 VA/MD match.

Like I said, the layout of the barrels made it so it didn't make sense to take the time to stowe any mags, at least in Production. If I was shooting Limited I'd have put two mags on the first barrel and loaded the gun and stuck the other on my magnet, but that choice wasn't available.

[motosapiens]

well, if it happens at major matches (and I seem to recall it at Area 1 a couple years ago), and those stages are all approved by NROI, then I guess the conclusion we can come to is that it's legal.

I think it's more fun to give you the option of stowing mags in your pouches, but design the stage so that it wouldn't be an advantage, and see what people choose to do, at least in an SS/prod match that doesn't have magnets.

[Gary Stevens]

Sure, if you had picked the mag up and put it on your belt you could have because it came from the barrel.

[bikerburgess]

Reloading devices are very important. The challenge in carrying something while engaging targets is just that, but it allows you to do it however you wish. You can stick it between your legs and shoot freestyle or carry it in your weak hand and shoot strong hand only, etc.

Most of these say something like carry object and place it in a particular location, or use the carried prop to activate something at the end of the stage. Your problem, you solve it.

Ok what rule is that?

I see where the rules mention unless the WSB says something else mags come from your pouches. That makes it pretty clear that the WSB Can stipulate something else.

[Gary Stevens]

well, if it happens at major matches (and I seem to recall it at Area 1 a couple years ago), and those stages are all approved by NROI, then I guess the conclusion we can come to is that it's legal.

I think it's more fun to give you the option of stowing mags in your pouches, but design the stage so that it wouldn't be an advantage, and see what people choose to do, at least in an SS/prod match that doesn't have magnets.

Are you saying the WSB prohibited putting the mags on your belt after the start signal? I know stages are approved by DNROI but I've never sent in a WSB. Edited February 10, 2016 by Gary Stevens

[Gary Stevens]

Reloading devices are very important. The challenge in carrying something while engaging targets is just that, but it allows you to do it however you wish. You can stick it between your legs and shoot freestyle or carry it in your weak hand and shoot strong hand only, etc.

Most of these say something like carry object and place it in a particular location, or use the carried prop to activate something at the end of the stage. Your problem, you solve it.

Ok what rule is that?

I see where the rules mention unless the WSB says something else mags come from your pouches. That makes it pretty clear that the WSB Can stipulate something else.

Sure like staging them on barrels.

[d_striker]

It was stage 5 at the 2015 VA/MD match.

Like I said, the layout of the barrels made it so it didn't make sense to take the time to stowe any mags, at least in Production. If I was shooting Limited I'd have put two mags on the first barrel and loaded the gun and stuck the other on my magnet, but that choice wasn't available.

That WSB doesn't say you can't use your pouches. It just says that reloads have to come from a barrel. After the buzzer, if you stuff a pouch with a mag off a barrel, you have complied with the WSB.

There's no reason DNROI wouldn't approve that stage as written. What's questionable is the RM and RO's enforcing the "can't use your pouches" deal.

Gary-as you can see there is still quite a bit of confusion out there. I don't recall this rule being discussed at our RO course that I took with another NROI instructor. Perhaps it should be included in the RO class discussion?

Edited February 10, 2016 by d_striker

[Gary Stevens]

It was stage 5 at the 2015 VA/MD match.

Like I said, the layout of the barrels made it so it didn't make sense to take the time to stowe any mags, at least in Production. If I was shooting Limited I'd have put two mags on the first barrel and loaded the gun and stuck the other on my magnet, but that choice wasn't available.

That WSB doesn't say you can't use your pouches. It just says that reloads have to come from a barrel. After the buzzer, if you stuff a pouch with a mag off a barrel, you have complied with the WSB.

There's no reason DNROI wouldn't approve that stage as written. What's questionable is the RM and RO's enforcing the "can't use your pouches" deal.

Gary-as you can see there is still quite a bit of skepticism. I don't recall this rule being discussed at our RO course that I took with another NROI instructor. Perhaps it should be included in the RO class discussion?

I agree post 54. The rule is under the concept of freestyle. Sure exceptions are carved out for last six shots, etc. We use props and stage design to achieve results not verbiage in the WSB. I lived through the WSB days that was more like an IDPA WSB. Then we finally woke up and embraced one of our principles, freestyle. The best WSB describes the start position and then "engage as available". Edited February 10, 2016 by Gary Stevens

[sperman]

Whether you think it's freestyle or not it doesn't matter. The rule is pretty ironclad.

During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose.

If the WSB says 'after the start signal ammunition may not be carried in magazine pouches' that means ALL the time after the start signal. Not just the moments after the buzzer.

Saying 'reloads may not come from the belt' is effectively the same thing.

I've always been confused by what exactly that wording allows. I started a thread on it several years ago, but didn't get much clarification.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=148858&hl=otherwise#entry1669913

[Gary Stevens]

Without that wording the mags would have to be on the belt at the start signal for every stage. No creative pre-positioning of magazines prior to the start signal such as on table, on barrel, etc.

[bikerburgess]

Reloading devices are very important. The challenge in carrying something while engaging targets is just that, but it allows you to do it however you wish. You can stick it between your legs and shoot freestyle or carry it in your weak hand and shoot strong hand only, etc.

Most of these say something like carry object and place it in a particular location, or use the carried prop to activate something at the end of the stage. Your problem, you solve it.

Ok what rule is that?

I see where the rules mention unless the WSB says something else mags come from your pouches. That makes it pretty clear that the WSB Can stipulate something else.

Sure like staging them on barrels.

Can you show me where that limit is?

Not saying it makes for great stages, but you have stated it's against the rules

[Nik Habicht]

The WSB just needs to state that all mags start on the table and that all reloads must come from the table.

That is true if it is a single location stage, not because the WSB says so but because it is quicker than putting them n a pouch. If movement is involved it is a different matter, IMO as the WSB can't restrict freestyle after the buzzer.

Our sport is free style at its core.

Sorry I messed up my edit.

I've shot several matches where the WSB basically asked competitors to stage mags on barrels. The stage was laid out in a linear fashion, the WSB specified that no mags could start on the shooter, all reloads had to come from mags that had been prestaged on barrels. That requirement in combination with the set-up of the stage, essentially made everything else a really bad idea.....

It was a simply faster to reload from the barrels, than it was to do anything else....

[Nik Habicht]

You may use props to force the shooter to solve a problem. How they solve that problem though is up to them. Forcing them to choose a pre established solution, via the WSB, is not freestyle.

Example: stage requires magazines pre-staged on barrels through the course. You can not penalize me for going to each barrel, putting those mags into my pouches, and then shooting the stage.

Only because you'll likely be penalizing yourself, by taking an inordinate amount of time to shoot the stage. But I agree -- if someone wanted to, that would be legal and really slow....

[Gary Stevens]

You may use props to force the shooter to solve a problem. How they solve that problem though is up to them. Forcing them to choose a pre established solution, via the WSB, is not freestyle.

Example: stage requires magazines pre-staged on barrels through the course. You can not penalize me for going to each barrel, putting those mags into my pouches, and then shooting the stage.

Only because you'll likely be penalizing yourself, by taking an inordinate amount of time to shoot the stage. But I agree -- if someone wanted to, that would be legal and really slow....

Absolutely, freestyle. Make the best choice and execute it.

[rowdyb]

What constitutes initiating a reload? Wherever your mag is when you perform that action, that is where the mag "came from".

[DagoRed]

Can I ask another question, directly related to the original and the subsequent comments?

One person said that they could take the mags and then stuff them in their pockets. Since the rules say that unless otherwise stated they have to come off the belt, if it says you can't use your mag pouches, but doesn't say they have to come off a barrel, are you then allowed to use your pockets? I ask because my 5.11pants have a pocket on the front of each thigh that is perfect for magazines. I use mine for my barney mag and make ready with it, just don't come from there after the buzzer.

I have shot a couple of these types of matches where we had to come off the barrels. I thought it was a fun change up.

Red

[waktasz]

It was stage 5 at the 2015 VA/MD match.

Like I said, the layout of the barrels made it so it didn't make sense to take the time to stowe any mags, at least in Production. If I was shooting Limited I'd have put two mags on the first barrel and loaded the gun and stuck the other on my magnet, but that choice wasn't available.

That WSB doesn't say you can't use your pouches. It just says that reloads have to come from a barrel. After the buzzer, if you stuff a pouch with a mag off a barrel, you have complied with the WSB.

There's no reason DNROI wouldn't approve that stage as written. What's questionable is the RM and RO's enforcing the "can't use your pouches" deal.

Gary-as you can see there is still quite a bit of confusion out there. I don't recall this rule being discussed at our RO course that I took with another NROI instructor. Perhaps it should be included in the RO class discussion?

They told us at the match you could not put the mags in your pouches, they had to come right from the barrel. That is my point, if anyone would read my posts.

[frag316]

Can I ask another question, directly related to the original and the subsequent comments?

One person said that they could take the mags and then stuff them in their pockets. Since the rules say that unless otherwise stated they have to come off the belt, if it says you can't use your mag pouches, but doesn't say they have to come off a barrel, are you then allowed to use your pockets? I ask because my 5.11pants have a pocket on the front of each thigh that is perfect for magazines. I use mine for my barney mag and make ready with it, just don't come from there after the buzzer.

I have shot a couple of these types of matches where we had to come off the barrels. I thought it was a fun change up.

Red

Are you shooting Open or Limited/L10? Because you get bumped to Open if you are shooting a division where magazine placement matters (Prod, SS, Carry Optics) and you use that particular set of pockets.

[waktasz]

Can I ask another question, directly related to the original and the subsequent comments?

One person said that they could take the mags and then stuff them in their pockets. Since the rules say that unless otherwise stated they have to come off the belt, if it says you can't use your mag pouches, but doesn't say they have to come off a barrel, are you then allowed to use your pockets? I ask because my 5.11pants have a pocket on the front of each thigh that is perfect for magazines. I use mine for my barney mag and make ready with it, just don't come from there after the buzzer.

I have shot a couple of these types of matches where we had to come off the barrels. I thought it was a fun change up.

Red

I said "pocket them" earlier in the thread but I didn't mean put them in your actual pockets. Sorry for the confusion.

[Nik Habicht]

It was stage 5 at the 2015 VA/MD match.

Like I said, the layout of the barrels made it so it didn't make sense to take the time to stowe any mags, at least in Production. If I was shooting Limited I'd have put two mags on the first barrel and loaded the gun and stuck the other on my magnet, but that choice wasn't available.

That WSB doesn't say you can't use your pouches. It just says that reloads have to come from a barrel. After the buzzer, if you stuff a pouch with a mag off a barrel, you have complied with the WSB.

There's no reason DNROI wouldn't approve that stage as written. What's questionable is the RM and RO's enforcing the "can't use your pouches" deal.

Gary-as you can see there is still quite a bit of confusion out there. I don't recall this rule being discussed at our RO course that I took with another NROI instructor. Perhaps it should be included in the RO class discussion?

They told us at the match you could not put the mags in your pouches, they had to come right from the barrel. That is my point, if anyone would read my posts.

If I was sitting on an carb committee, where a competitor made the argument that their mag did come "off the barrel" before being placed in a mag pouch, and ultimately being stuffed in a pouch, I'd have a hard time not agreeing with the competitor.....

[Nik Habicht]

Honestly -- they could have written one more sentence......

Belt is removed for this stage; gun starts in Box A. See 5.2.3 -- I don't know of anyone who would put a belt back on, then stuff mags into pouches.....

[motosapiens]

If I was sitting on an carb committee, where a competitor made the argument that their mag did come "off the barrel" before being placed in a mag pouch, and ultimately being stuffed in a pouch, I'd have a hard time not agreeing with the competitor.....

It would make just as much sense (ie, none) to argue that the mag came from the pouch before it was put on the barrel, so everyone gets a procedural.

[Thomas H]

Well you might be right, but until DNROI tells me otherwise, I'm not buying it.

First Production Nationals I ever shot, in 2010, there was a stage that said "all magazines must start on barrels, all reloads must come from barrels, and no magazine may be carried on the person at any time."

I remember it clearly because I picked up two magazines from a barrel, reloaded with one, held the other one in my hand while shooting a couple of targets, reloaded with that last one, engaged the last targets, and got 5 procedural penalties for those last 5 shots because I reloaded from the magazine in my hand that I picked up from the barrel.

I would have made 1st Master at my first Nationals ever (17th overall) without those five procedurals, and since the RM was called to the stage when I argued the procedurals and he upheld them all, I'm thinking that apparently the WSB can indeed specify not only that you can't use mag pouches, but also that you can't do anything other than pick up mags from barrels and put them straight into the gun.

Don't know if the current DNROI would have upheld that, but DNROI at the time certainly did, plus it was a Nationals stage so I assume NROI looked at it. (And the current DNROI was also an RM at that Nats, I think.)

[BSeevers]

I would be ok scheduling a blanket party for the Open shooter that did this to the SS shooters