teros135 Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 I shot a really interesting stage last year. 32 rounds, mags only on barrels/tables, lot of movement from one side to the other. What was interesting was the placement of the tables relative to the ports and wall openings - for Production especially they weren't always convenient for grabbing a mag on your way from one position to another because some of the tables would be past the next port/opening. It forced you to actually THINK, create a plan, and execute it. A good test of skills all around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 The WSB can state and mandate almost anything, there are very few limitations on it in the rules, even fewer at a level one match (not that, that would come into effect in this case) it can be used to make interesting stage procedures or horrible stages, it all comes down to how it is written. In this case it says I can't use my mag pouches so I can't use them, unfortunately for the stage designers intent(I hate that word) it did not say anything about pockets or magnets or stuffing them in your belt so all those would be fine just not the pouches. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The "it's just a level 1 match" expression that always get's thrown around doesn't exist in the rules. Part of the benefit/responsibility of being affiliated with USPSA is that a member can go to any match in the country and expect that the match follows the rules. Regardless of what level match it is. The only L1 exemption in the rulebook that I can think of pertains to painting steel after every shooter and mandating that targets must be activated before shooting them. Shooting boxes. But you are right there aren't many. Often just gets used to be loose with the rules in my opinion. When I was doing my end of season"fun" matches we would get pretty loose and do things like require shooting on one leg, multi colored targets, blind stages with no walk thru Etc but everybody knew it coming into the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 I shot the match, if I recall the WSB, "Magazines on table, magazines used during COF cannot come from the belt or put onto shooter's magazine pouch" First stage from the video below is the stage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bJ9GLe7LOY&list=PLEQelictxo1uhon3YYL0P7VNhTSGthd15&index=40 IMO, an illegal stage as it violates freestyle after the buzzer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinZA Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Behave yourself, moto.... Sent by Jedi mind control Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thermobollocks Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Possible, yes, valuable, eh. If you find yourself having to write a paragraph to describe the kind of behavior you don't want done, there are probably better things the stage could do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig N Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 The WSB can state and mandate almost anything, there are very few limitations on it in the rules, even fewer at a level one match (not that, that would come into effect in this case) it can be used to make interesting stage procedures or horrible stages, it all comes down to how it is written. In this case it says I can't use my mag pouches so I can't use them, unfortunately for the stage designers intent(I hate that word) it did not say anything about pockets or magnets or stuffing them in your belt so all those would be fine just not the pouches. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The "it's just a level 1 match" expression that always get's thrown around doesn't exist in the rules. Part of the benefit/responsibility of being affiliated with USPSA is that a member can go to any match in the country and expect that the match follows the rules. Regardless of what level match it is. The only L1 exemption in the rulebook that I can think of pertains to painting steel after every shooter and mandating that targets must be activated before shooting them. Shooting boxes. But you are right there aren't many. Often just gets used to be loose with the rules in my opinion. When I was doing my end of season"fun" matches we would get pretty loose and do things like require shooting on one leg, multi colored targets, blind stages with no walk thru Etc but everybody knew it coming into the match. They have a Toys 4 Tots match each year where I shoot. It's a little bit of everything and the rules are basically don't the 180 and 10 rounds in mags. Very few if any PEs are given and everyone has a good time trying to either shoot really good to win a gun or shoot like total crap to win a gun in the lower tiers. I think the shooting like crap is harder than trying to shoot your best! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garmil Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 I thought the first stage of this video was the one in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Don't see why not. And I hope this doesn't go 6 pages.1/3 of the way there. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 I thought the first stage of this video was the one in question. https://youtu.be/_2vZqkDa4wo Doesn't look like the WSB on that stage stated you couldn't use your mag pouches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 The WSB can state and mandate almost anything, there are very few limitations on it in the rules, even fewer at a level one match (not that, that would come into effect in this case) it can be used to make interesting stage procedures or horrible stages, it all comes down to how it is written. In this case it says I can't use my mag pouches so I can't use them, unfortunately for the stage designers intent(I hate that word) it did not say anything about pockets or magnets or stuffing them in your belt so all those would be fine just not the pouches. apparently the bolded portion of my statement was hard to find or understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 I shot the match, if I recall the WSB, "Magazines on table, magazines used during COF cannot come from the belt or put onto shooter's magazine pouch" First stage from the video below is the stage. IMO, an illegal stage as it violates freestyle after the buzzer. would you also say a stage requiring you to hold or carry something while shooting is also illegal? that would fall under the same not freestyle after the buzzer would it not? Freestyle is not limiting how you solve the problem presented it has no bearing on the problem itself. in the case in question the problem is where you can and cannot put you ammo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 would you also say a stage requiring you to hold or carry something while shooting is also illegal? that would fall under the same not freestyle after the buzzer would it not? Freestyle is not limiting how you solve the problem presented it has no bearing on the problem itself. in the case in question the problem is where you can and cannot put you ammo Look up "Freestyle" in the rules under 1.1.5. Then look at: 1.1.5.5 A course of fire which, through the use of props, requires a competitor to shoot both strong-hand-only and weak-hand-only must not require that the shooter transition directly from one to the other. The course of fire must provide movement and unencumbered freestyle target engagement between the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 You may use props to force the shooter to solve a problem. How they solve that problem though is up to them. Forcing them to choose a pre established solution, via the WSB, is not freestyle. Example: stage requires magazines pre-staged on barrels through the course. You can not penalize me for going to each barrel, putting those mags into my pouches, and then shooting the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 You may use props to force the shooter to solve a problem. How they solve that problem though is up to them. Forcing them to choose a pre established solution, via the WSB, is not freestyle. you can also stipulate at least *some* means of solving the problem: 1.1.5.4 Medium or Long courses of fire may stipulate the use of either strong or weak hand, provided that only one hand, either strong or weak, is specified for no more than the last 6 shots required Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 There was a stage like this at Area 8 last year and I asked this same question, referencing "freestyle". I got shut down. In the grand scheme of things they had barrels placed where I didn't have to think about pocketing mags in the pouches, but it would have been nice to have options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 You may use props to force the shooter to solve a problem. How they solve that problem though is up to them. Forcing them to choose a pre established solution, via the WSB, is not freestyle. you can also stipulate at least *some* means of solving the problem: 1.1.5.4 Medium or Long courses of fire may stipulate the use of either strong or weak hand, provided that only one hand, either strong or weak, is specified for no more than the last 6 shots required Exception noted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 There was a stage like this at Area 8 last year and I asked this same question, referencing "freestyle". I got shut down. In the grand scheme of things they had barrels placed where I didn't have to think about pocketing mags in the pouches, but it would have been nice to have options. It isn't the stationing of the mags, it is the penalty for not using the mags in a specific way that is the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) There was a stage like this at Area 8 last year and I asked this same question, referencing "freestyle". I got shut down. In the grand scheme of things they had barrels placed where I didn't have to think about pocketing mags in the pouches, but it would have been nice to have options. Wait. Did this stage at A8 say you couldn't use your pouches after the start? Edited February 9, 2016 by d_striker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 There was a stage like this at Area 8 last year and I asked this same question, referencing "freestyle". I got shut down. In the grand scheme of things they had barrels placed where I didn't have to think about pocketing mags in the pouches, but it would have been nice to have options. Wait. Did this stage at A8 say you couldn't use your pouches after the start? There was a stage like this at Area 8 last year and I asked this same question, referencing "freestyle". I got shut down. In the grand scheme of things they had barrels placed where I didn't have to think about pocketing mags in the pouches, but it would have been nice to have options. Wait. Did this stage at A8 say you couldn't use your pouches after the start? No. Only no mags on the belt prior to the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 There was a stage like this at Area 8 last year and I asked this same question, referencing "freestyle". I got shut down. In the grand scheme of things they had barrels placed where I didn't have to think about pocketing mags in the pouches, but it would have been nice to have options. Didn't we have options, like which barrels to put the mags on, how many mags to put (and where), what route to run, etc.? I thought it was an interesting stage and didn't even question the WSB, just figured out a stage plan and ran it. BTW, the match book stage description simply said firearm unloaded, all ammunition on barrels. It was a quick stage, 29 rds, and it seemed a toss up whether to put mags in pouches. A legal stage, overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 There was a stage like this at Area 8 last year and I asked this same question, referencing "freestyle". I got shut down. In the grand scheme of things they had barrels placed where I didn't have to think about pocketing mags in the pouches, but it would have been nice to have options. Didn't we have options, like which barrels to put the mags on, how many mags to put (and where), what route to run, etc.? I thought it was an interesting stage and didn't even question the WSB, just figured out a stage plan and ran it. BTW, the match book stage description simply said firearm unloaded, all ammunition on barrels. It was a quick stage, 29 rds, and it seemed a toss up whether to put mags in pouches. A legal stage, overall. Perfectly legal. Stages like that pop up regularly at various clubs around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 You may use props to force the shooter to solve a problem. How they solve that problem though is up to them. Forcing them to choose a pre established solution, via the WSB, is not freestyle. Example: stage requires magazines pre-staged on barrels through the course. You can not penalize me for going to each barrel, putting those mags into my pouches, and then shooting the stage. why would using your mag pouches after the beep be different, in relation to freestyle, than mandating carrying something? I'm not trying to be a pain I just don't understand your argument that some kinds of limitations from the WSB are OK during the course of fire but this particular one is not. I am not saying that having lots of limitations in the WSB is a good thing, just that it is legal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Reloading devices are very important. The challenge in carrying something while engaging targets is just that, but it allows you to do it however you wish. You can stick it between your legs and shoot freestyle or carry it in your weak hand and shoot strong hand only, etc. Most of these say something like carry object and place it in a particular location, or use the carried prop to activate something at the end of the stage. Your problem, you solve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickBlasta Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) Whether you think it's freestyle or not it doesn't matter. The rule is pretty ironclad. During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. If the WSB says 'after the start signal ammunition may not be carried in magazine pouches' that means ALL the time after the start signal. Not just the moments after the buzzer. Saying 'reloads may not come from the belt' is effectively the same thing. Edited February 9, 2016 by NickBlasta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Well you might be right, but until DNROI tells me otherwise, I'm not buying it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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