Should 1-? Variables be allowed in limited

[Stlhead]

For your consideration. And discussion.

I propose that 1-? Variable power scopes be allowed in limited. As long as they are used on 1x only.

My reasons for proposing this are as follow;

A variable power 1x scope on 1x is not a competing advantage over a fixed 1x scope.

Many more competitors already own 1-? Scopes than fixed 1x scopes, allowing more people to have division competitive gear, lowering entry resistance to the division.

It would allow a shooter who was competing in limited the instant option to crank up the power and change to scope tac if he or she felt that the target presentation was too frustrating to continue in limited.

The only arguments that I could imagine against allowing variables in limited would be the possibility of someone trying to use magnification and still shoot in limited as a means of cheating, or the difficulty of RO enforcement.

With nearly every run being caught on video, and the watchful eye of squad mates and RO's, I think the odds of someone intentionaly cheating and getting away with it for long are slim. Also as a long time limited shooter, I don't much care if some clown tries to cheat a little, he or she is only cheating themselves. The easy transition to scope tac would also make cheating in this manner risky and pointless.

As for making it difficult for RO's to enforce, honestly RO's don't check for division compliance now, that duty falls to the squad for the most part and the shooters integrity ultimately. I am not thinking any more effort from the RO is called for.

In summary, I feel this minor change would allow more people to shoot limited with the gear they already own and have on their match rifles. It would allow more shooters the option of shooting in limited with competitive gear if they thought they would enjoy the match more by doing so. And it would give limited shooters who chose to use variables a convenient way to switch to scope tac if the target presentation condition radically changed or was generally poor.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

[outerlimits]

Irons, period!

[wgj3]

Honestly, I also think it should be real irons only. I hate the HM allows non-irons guns.

[Stlhead]

There is no heavy metal in the matches I attend. No one wants to shoot it.

At this point eliminating 1x optics in limited would kill the division. Instead of 15 or 20 we would have 1 or 2, limited would die just like HM. You can compete against prismatics and Aimpoints with your irons in limited, or you can compete with 1-6's in scope tac because there where not enough limited shooters to score. Either we bring in more limited shooters or we don't.

[P.E. Kelley]

There is no heavy metal in the matches I attend. No one wants to shoot it.

At this point eliminating 1x optics in limited would kill the division. Instead of 15 or 20 we would have 1 or 2, limited would die just like HM. You can compete against prismatics and Aimpoints with your irons in limited, or you can compete with 1-6's in scope tac because there where not enough limited shooters to score. Either we bring in more limited shooters or we don't.

You are absolutely right. I love my Irons but the truth is most people don't run them.

Limited would BE DEAD if not for the 1x optic revolution! Thank you optics companies!!!

The issue I see with allowing variables in 1x is "cheating" and the headache for the RO's and the Stats dealing with the changes

midstream. Not to mention that very few other shooters will step up and call out those who transgress.

Maybe a "band" (some kind of tape) or a Tie Wrap or some such to keep the honest honest.

I don't think the option should be foe a shooters to change power during the match.

This idea may help the few guys who only have one gun and one variable optic to play in Limited.

[mwx40x40]

Irons, period!

This⬆️

[P.E. Kelley]

Irons, period!

This⬆️

Please take this kindly...do you shoot Irons? Have you? At a Major match?

I understand the sentiment, but I have run Limited and or Heavy Metal for a Decade, and both have nearly died from lack of participation.

Heavy is still limping along at a couple of matches and Limited has made a comeback with the intro of 1x optics.

"Irons Period" means it will go back to the slow decay again.

Oh and I have no problem shooting Irons "against" 1x optics...it ain't no thang.

Edited December 20, 2015 by P.E. Kelley

[mwx40x40]

Irons, period!

This⬆️

Please take this kindly...do you shoot Irons? Have you? At a Major match?

I understand the sentiment, but I have run Limited and or Heavy Metal for a Decade, and both have nearly died from lack of participation.

Heavy is still limping along at a couple of matches and Limited has made a comeback with the intro of 1x optics.

"Irons Period" means it will go back to the slow decay again.

Oh and I have no problem shooting Irons "against" 1x optics...it ain't no thang.

Well Pat it has been a while, but yes. Shot the 2nd & 3rd Fort Benning,Area 6, some Carbine Team Event in Florida in 2002 all with an old school Colt HBar . However, truth be known I have long since given up on limited for Majors and have joined the majority in Tact Ops. I think I was just reminiscing of the old days and enjoyed shooting irons. Every now and then I shoot our club match with irons, but these old yes are not what they used to be.

I fully support always doing what's best for sport and I have come to accept red dots and irons in same division and understand the reasoning, just never fully liked it.

BTW , I always enjoy your Christmas tunes .

[P.E. Kelley]

Irons, period!

This⬆️

Please take this kindly...do you shoot Irons? Have you? At a Major match?

I understand the sentiment, but I have run Limited and or Heavy Metal for a Decade, and both have nearly died from lack of participation.

Heavy is still limping along at a couple of matches and Limited has made a comeback with the intro of 1x optics.

"Irons Period" means it will go back to the slow decay again.

Oh and I have no problem shooting Irons "against" 1x optics...it ain't no thang.

Well Pat it has been a while, but yes. Shot the 2nd & 3rd Fort Benning,Area 6, some Carbine Team Event in Florida in 2002 all with an old school Colt HBar . However, truth be known I have long since given up on limited for Majors and have joined the majority in Tact Ops. I think I was just reminiscing of the old days and enjoyed shooting irons. Every now and then I shoot our club match with irons, but these old yes are not what they used to be.

I fully support always doing what's best for sport and I have come to accept red dots and irons in same division and understand the reasoning, just never fully liked it.

BTW , I always enjoy your Christmas tunes .

Based on your reply, you took my post the way I had hoped.

With you having that level of commitment to Irons, your opinion carries more weight with me.

I wish the "need" for 1x was not their, but it really has had a profound effect on the Limited Division growing.

Merry Christmas to you and yours!

[michael1778]

This suggestion has merit, in my opinion. My only modification would be that cheating would be a match DQ or some other actual sanction. If you start in the division you accept the risks that a target presentation may be "frustrating."

[bishop414]

Why? There is a perfectly defined division that has the same equipment as limited known as tac scope, difference being the sight system for rifle.

I understand your point of trying to get more limited shooters to play but first timers with scopes can play in their scope division. I shoot irons via a 1x red dot, thanks for allowing them.

As to enforcement, what a nightmare for ROs. Last thing I want to watch for is if a shooter is adjusting his scope when he shouldn't be. Also, most ROs that I have worked with check gear and divisions at the majors.

[Stlhead]

The RO's don't watch what people shoot now. I am not advocating that they start. like I said people may cheat, but no one s going to win by cheating, and intentionaly cheating is a match DQ at any match worth going to. The Idea was to foster additional participation, and ease entry. Other than those who are demanding the removal of 1x from limited in this thread I have not seen any real dissent. If the desire to remove 1x from limited is there then feel free and start a new thread to consider it.

[HRider]

I shoot irons, real, old school irons and enjoy shooting them. I wouldn't have a problem allowing a true 1x to shoot in my class/division (depends on whose match you are at) as long as there was a zip tie, tape or something holding the throw lever/power ring at 1. I don't see it any different than downloading mags for class/division requirement or allowing red dot shooters to leave their magnifiers on the gun, but not allowing them to put them in line with the dot. I have also been to matches that allowed a rifle with an offset dot to keep it on the rifle as long as it was covered for the entire match. Allowing people to compete with a variable fixed at true 1x is not going to give a great advantage (weight of variable is generally more than a dot) to them, in my opinion. It may even get more people to shoot the "limited" class/division.

While I wish there were more irons shooters, and wish they were shooting real irons, it is not looking promising anymore. Two weeks ago at Ft Benning, I was the only person at the match running iron sights, to my knowledge. There just isn't any interest in running irons in this country anymore.

Hurley

[outerlimits]

I'm taking it kindly, Patrick. I was born with irons, the marine corps told me that's all I needed. Bottom line is optics companies pay the postage-that's why irons are dead. Merry Christmas buddy!

[kurtm]

Yes Pat, lets thank the "optic companies" for bringing us this great change in limited that "pioneered" the use of red dots in "iron sight". Those companies are such forward thinkers!

Steely, it is called sealing paint. It is real thick and when dry, brittle. If the ring turns at all it will crack. If the "seal is broke" match D.Q. cause it is called cheating.....as one of the two "optics companies" that started the red dots in iron division, I say bring it!

Edited December 21, 2015 by kurtm

[ziebart]

Kurtm,

While sealing paint may work the dedicated cheater will carry some with him. After RMing a recent match I have no doubt there are some who view cheating as just another part of the game.

Here is an alternative, though much more expensive than the paint. http://www.seals.com/tamper-tape-1x2-labels.asp?tab=2

I say let people run their scopes at 1x for the locals and if they want to shoot a major then buy a true 1x sight. Less headache for the match staff.

[mscott]

No, leave the variable scopes where they are. This is not an inexpensive sport as we all know. If a shooter really wants to shoot Limited a simple red dot on the rifle should be an easy enough change and not too expensive to have on hand. A trip to the range to zero it the week before the match and you're all set.

Edited December 21, 2015 by mscott

[P.E. Kelley]

No, leave the variable scopes where they are. This is not an inexpensive sport as we all know. If a shooter really wants to shoot Limited a simple red dot on the rifle should be an easy enough change and not too expensive to have on hand. A trip to the range to zero it the week before the match and you're all set.

I was trying to be nice,,,but this^^^ is how I really feel.

I honestly don't think that this "rules" change will make any difference in participation.

Maybe I am wrong but do we really have 100 guys who shoot TacOptics wishing they could shoot limited but they just can't afford too?

Maybe, maybe at a local match and maybe that will drive them to do it at a Major so maybe unless with let them try we will never know.

With the seal in place, I have no issue with it, just not sure it will make any difference.

[kurtm]

But Pat, you don't understand. There are at least 100 guys who shoot tac scope who upon arriving at the match realize that Daniel Horner is shooting in tac scope at that match, and now want to switch to any division other than tac scope. You got to have a place for these poor guys to play.

Edited December 21, 2015 by kurtm

[Dan Sierpina]

But Pat, you don't understand. There are at left 100 guys who shoot tac scope who upon arriving at the match realize that Daniel Horner is shooting in tac scope at that match, and now want to switch to any division other than tac scope. You got to have a place for these poor guys to play.

Heavy Metal?

[kurtm]

No Dan, now they would have to haul a whole separate set of gear and guns to do that! This way it is all the same stuff! Make that last minute "division shopping" expedition real easy.

[Benelli Chick]

No Dan, now they would have to haul a whole separate set of gear and guns to do that! This way it is all the same stuff! Make that last minute "division shopping" expedition real easy.

What can I say? Once in a while Kurt hits the nail on the head!

[Bryan 45]

Do I have to provide supporting arguments or can I just say NO?

Edited December 21, 2015 by Bryan 45

[ziebart]

It does make division shopping that much easier, but how hard is it to pack a little red dot, and hit the zero range when you get there. Most people already check zeros if they flew or drove very far to the match.

[Stlhead]

Finally Kurt has come to the conclusion that I was hoping for. I would like nothing more than to see a bunch of guys jump divisions and play in limited. A variable on 1x is no more competitive than any other 1x or irons. If it got a few more guys to try limited it would be worth it. The argument that guys may cheat and dial in some magnification when nobody is looking is just not relevant. I consider it no different than a long tube on a shotgun, how easy would it be for a shooter to slip 4 extra rounds into one of those shower curtain rod tubes that are all the rage now? There is no clamor to shorten tubes, if the honor system is good enough for that why not for this? I am for inclusion, not exclusion, and not for some noble reason, I prefer shooting limited, I shot heavy metal until I realized it was dead and moved to limited. The best way to keep limited from going the way of HM is to get more people shooting it. If someone has any ideas that will add to limited participation I will support them.