Death Jam

[zhunter]

Firstly, I am ultra Type A about my equipment and ammo, so this was really weird. My wife had a death jam yesterday to the point it too us several tries to dislodge the bullet. The gun would not go fully into battery and the bullet was stuck in the chamber.

I case gauge every round before it is shot, practice or match it does not matter. Here is the odd thing, I case gauged the death jam round when I got home from the match and it gauges no problem.

So, I'm asking the ammo gurus, WTF caused this? Same ammo bach from last week's monster match, and this weeks Thursday night match which all ran perfectly.

Ideas?

Edited to add:

I just measured the OAL, the Jam Bullet is 1.152" and the others are 1.135", would that do it?

Edited November 9, 2015 by zhunter

[peterthefish]

Yes, that would cause it - long OAL. A gauge will catch a case out of spec but not one too long for the leade of your barrel.

Try a plunk test with it. If it fails, buy a reamer and ream your barrels. It is a 10 minute job.

Also, to clear the jam were you firmly holding the slide and then slamming your strong hand into the grip? I used to run into this issue with my PM-9 which had a very tight chamber until I realized CBC brass was the problem. There's a technique to clearing these jams.

Edited November 9, 2015 by peterthefish

[kneelingatlas]

The only case gauge worth using is the barrel of your gun.

[zhunter]

OK, after repeatedly trying to chamber that round it looks like the rifleing is hitting on the bullet and not allowing the slide to go into battery, does this sound feasible?

Here is a photo, you can make out a blackish ring around the bullet's shoulder area.

[kneelingatlas]

Yes

Edited November 9, 2015 by kneelingatlas

[zhunter]

Yes, that would cause it - long OAL. A gauge will catch a case out of spec but not one too long for the leade of your barrel.

Try a plunk test with it. If it fails, buy a reamer and ream your barrels. It is a 10 minute job.

Also, to clear the jam were you firmly holding the slide and then slamming your strong hand into the grip? I used to run into this issue with my PM-9 which had a very tight chamber until I realized CBC brass was the problem. There's a technique to clearing these jams.

Yes, that was the only way we got it cleared. This was a Shadow, my P-09 has an even tighter chamber. I really don't want to ream although I have considered it several times.

[peterthefish]

Yes, that would cause it - long OAL. A gauge will catch a case out of spec but not one too long for the leade of your barrel.

Try a plunk test with it. If it fails, buy a reamer and ream your barrels. It is a 10 minute job.

Also, to clear the jam were you firmly holding the slide and then slamming your strong hand into the grip? I used to run into this issue with my PM-9 which had a very tight chamber until I realized CBC brass was the problem. There's a technique to clearing these jams.

Yes, that was the only way we got it cleared. This was a Shadow, my P-09 has an even tighter chamber. I really don't want to ream although I have considered it several times.

Either ream it or find a RN profile bullet that's more forgiving of OAL.

[msg73]

Also, try to figure out why the OAL of that round was so out of spec. User error or something in the setup? Reaming will help but it really masks the issue.

[peterthefish]

Also, try to figure out why the OAL of that round was so out of spec. User error or something in the setup? Reaming will help but it really masks the issue.

Usually one of the last rounds through the press in a run. Without a case being sized exerting pressure on the opposite side of the shell plate OAL can grow a bit. Easy enough to set aside and plunk test the first and last 5 rounds out of a batch.

[IDescribe]

The SAAMI max dimensions that your case gauge uses will insure the round fits in the magazine. As Kneelingatlas said, the only case gauge worth using is the barrel you plan on shooting the round through.

The problem here is the last few rounds coming off your press. Just start putting those aside and measuring or plunk testing them individually to see what's good enough to shoot in competition, what's good enough to set aside for practice, and what's so long that you need to seat a little deeper.

There is no reason to ream your barrel. In the future, with every new bullet, YOU determine the max length the bullet will seat in your barrel, and load .010-.020 shorter than that. You can do a search for "push test" to see how to do it.

[MrPostman]

Cone type bullets generally need to be seated lower in the case vs a round nose bullet due to the problem you described with it hitting the lands. The bullet gets lodged on the lands and then the gun is jammed. Takes a lot of force to dislodge when this happens.

[eerw]

load it shorter..1.120-1.125

[zhunter]

msg73

The OAL was out of my normal spec

peterthefish

Pretty sure this could have been the cause, but of course I will never know

load it shorter..1.120-1.125

I typically load to 1.095" for RN, this bullet has a longer profile but was obviously not seated the proper depth. I am going to throat the barrel a bit to give some leaway but will not change my OAL

[magpulled]

Firstly, I am ultra Type A about my equipment and ammo, so this was really weird. My wife had a death jam yesterday to the point it too us several tries to dislodge the bullet. The gun would not go fully into battery and the bullet was stuck in the chamber.

I case gauge every round before it is shot, practice or match it does not matter. Here is the odd thing, I case gauged the death jam round when I got home from the match and it gauges no problem.

So, I'm asking the ammo gurus, WTF caused this? Same ammo bach from last week's monster match, and this weeks Thursday night match which all ran perfectly.

Ideas?

Edited to add:

I just measured the OAL, the Jam Bullet is 1.152" and the others are 1.135", would that do it?

That would definitely do it.

[Hi-Power Jack]

load it shorter..1.120-1.125

+1. Drop your powder 0.2 or 0.3 grains and seat the bullet

deeper. Work back up to your PF.

[zhunter]

load it shorter..1.120-1.125

+1. Drop your powder 0.2 or 0.3 grains and seat the bullet

deeper. Work back up to your PF.

I have my bullet seater set to 1.095" for RN bullets, obviously the pink bullet in the photo is not RN. Yes, these bullet profiles create a longer OAL, but this one was longer than all the others. Typically they are at 1.132, not 1.152. It was an anomoly, but I don't like ANY surprises.

Obviously this anomoly was not identified by the Shockbottle Hundo gauge.

[CZ85Combat]

Shockbottle Hundo gauge Or any other gauge does not check OAL! If you change bullet profiles you have to re-set your bullet seating die.

[longbeard]

I've been through this with my shadow. You have to go short with a CZ. 1.1 is what I load.

[IDescribe]

I am going to throat the barrel a bit to give some leaway but will not change my OAL

That's like cutting off your toes to get your shoes to fit. One of the major reasons to load your own ammo is so that you can tailor bullets to your pistols. You're planning to tailor your pistol to some arbitrary ammo OAL or die setting. You're doing it backwards.

You should in fact be setting up that die differently for each bullet you load. You determine with the push test what OAL you should be loading at. Then, all you have to do is make a dummy round (no primer, no powder) for each separate bullet you load. Finally, when you want to set up to load that bullet, just put the dummy round in the press, raise the ram, screw down the seating die onto the dummy round, and voila! your die is set up. It's neither difficult nor time consuming.

[GrumpyOne]

What causes the issue is the shoulder on the bullet. When I first got my Shadow, I was loading MG 124 JHP's, and had to load them to 1.085 to get them to work. They fed and ran fine at that OAL, but the longest that would work with them was 1.095...not alot of room for any eror in OAL. I switched to PD 147 round nose, and I could load them longer than what the mags would even hold. I settled for an OAL of 1.150. I'm shooting a cast conical 147 now, still at 1.150.

Also, I'm thinking if your "jam" bullet was 1.152 and your normal is 1.132, and the 1.132 doesn't jam, the throat on your barrel might have already been reamed...

[Hi-Power Jack]

I wonder if your load of 1.135" is Very Close to your max OAL?

There is always some variation in OAL and if you check 20 of your

reloads, you might find some at 1.130" and some at 1.139".

It's possible that a 1.139" loaded and got stuck on the rifling, and

when you tried to eject it, it pulled the bullet out a bit, to 1.152" - and

that's what you measured for the one cartridge that got stuck.

That would mean that if you were to load a little shorter, you would

have less chance of a slightly too long load sticking on the rifling and

causing problems for you.

In other words, you're skating on the edge at 1.135" and simply

shortening up a bit might give you more cushion.

Just a thought - worth the price you paid for it.

[IDescribe]

And just to add, there's nothing wrong with a short OAL. People seem to operate under the assumption that OAL means something ballistically, that longer in and of itself is better or safer or something. But it doesn't mean much. 1.160? Ooh, that's long. 1.070? Ooh, that's too short. But why would that be? The powder doesn't care one way or another how far away the nose of the bullet is from the head stamp. It cares a little how far the bullet is from the lands, but that distance can be the same through a wide variety of OALs based on bullet profile. The OAL doesn't tell you anything in that regard from one bullet to the next. It cares about bullet weight. But given the same bullet weight, what the powder REALLY cares about is the remaining internal case volume after the bullet is seated -- the initial size of the combustion chamber, which is also not directly tied to OAL across multiple bullet profile.

I seat Montana Gold 124gr JHP at 1.07

I seat XTreme 147gr RN-HPCB at 1.16

How much extra safety margin does the 1.16 OAL get me with the 147gr Xtreme? NONE. ZERO. At those OALs, both bullets are seated .255 into the case. The remaining internal case volumes are identical. And the 147gr bullet is heavier, which means that cartridge will be more sensitive to minor drifts in powder weight or OAL in the process of loading. In this case, the cartridge with the "short" OAL of 1.07 will actually be more forgiving.

Don't get hung up on OAL. It's just a number.

[zhunter]

I think you guys are misunderstanding my intentions, I am going to throat the barrel a bit to give myself (and wife) some room for error, I have NO intention of increasing my OAL. I don't need to, I have 133PF ammo that I like. Obviously my normal 1.095" for RN and 1.320" for conical works perfectly.

[Garmil]

Not a bad idea to ream if you are only able to load 1.095 oal on your round nose bullets.

Dont have a good reason for your 1 long bullet. Ive never heard of the first and last rounds on a progressive being off but I'm going to check it next time I load.

[IDescribe]

We understand, ZHunter. We just think shortening your OALs to say 1.085 and 1.31 is a better option for additional room for error than reaming the barrel. Changing your OAL is quick, free, fool-proof, requires no additional tools, and is most importantly -- reversible. Reaming your barrel is none of those.