Sarge Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 https://youtu.be/rsJoiA3fyIY Pretty flat from both. The super slow mo at about 40 seconds I could believe the dot staying in the glass. Don't forget they are shooting steel loads.Yes they are. From what I've seen the majority here think major loads shoot flatter than minor anyway though. That's pretty hard to believe. Around 140 to 150 pf my pistol certainly feels more controllable and "flatter" than at 169 pf using 115s.. 169 probably isn't maximizing the comp. I run 115's at 173 and its flatter than minor loads in my gun. Of course that's leaving it sprung for major loads but I only run an 8pound spring to begin with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.Elliott Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 (edited) Funny I was saying the same in an email. The interesting part to me too was how the dot basically explodes as the shock wave travels through the scope body. It's inherent in a design when the dot is projected onto the glass. The dot diode and glass are joined by a piece of plastic so they can move independently a bit. It made me wonder if the alluminium body cmores deal with that better? I imagine they do. You can see it pretty clearly here: Three distinct events occur: Scope mount flexes as recoil begins, flexes again when the slide hits the frame at full stroke, and the whole gun lifts in recoil a significant amount. It's really quite startling to see what is actually happening vs what we percieve to be happening. Edit to fix irritating spelling error. Edited November 6, 2015 by R.Elliott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain037 Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 Yup Atlas, I don't have video but I " perceive" the dot to bounce to 12 oclock and back down. If I don't do my part and limp wrist it the dot will leave. I shoot a 124 jhp and 8.0 hs6. I tried 115's but they were too flippy for me. Just the reverse of what you would think. My gun is muzzle heavy as it's a .40 converted to 9. The 9 barrel is way thicker. It is a combination of more than just a few elements to make it work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoyGlock Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 https://youtu.be/rsJoiA3fyIY Pretty flat from both. The super slow mo at about 40 seconds I could believe the dot staying in the glass. Don't forget they are shooting steel loads.Yes they are. From what I've seen the majority here think major loads shoot flatter than minor anyway though. That's pretty hard to believe. Around 140 to 150 pf my pistol certainly feels more controllable and "flatter" than at 169 pf using 115s.. 169 probably isn't maximizing the comp. I run 115's at 173 and its flatter than minor loads in my gun. Of course that's leaving it sprung for major loads but I only run an 8pound spring to begin with Maybe off topic a bit. Loading higher pf to work the comp and make the gun shoot flat also increases recoil but more directed to the rear which will be felt as a kick to one's hands. I made a few tests on this and I prefer a major load that flips a bit than a flat shooting load that stresses my gun more due to higher loads/pressure. Right now I decided for a 165 pf ipsc load against 174 flatter load due to reasons above: Increased recoil in the hands and greater pressure on the gun parts. To me these are unnecessary stresses in my shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Yep. That's a preference thing. Some prefer a softer feeling gun with a little more flip. Others prefer less flip at the expense of a gun pushing hard back in the hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 No way I would run a 165 load! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadyscott999 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 As I have stated many times in the past. Flat is nearly irrelevant. Predictable and repeatable is where it is at. I want a gun that does the exact same thing every time I pull the trigger. Of course i don't want some flippy mess, but most put too much time in searching for a "flat" gun which is actually a "squiggly" gun and harder to shoot that a "consistent" gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 No way I would run a 165 load! Would you run a 170 load? Cause remember, IPSC power factor is 160 for major, so he has the same amount of buffer a USPSA shooter would have at 170 (which is pretty common).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 No way I would run a 165 load!Would you run a 170 load? Cause remember, IPSC power factor is 160 for major, so he has the same amount of buffer a USPSA shooter would have at 170 (which is pretty common)....Oh that's right I guess I missed the "IPSC" clue. But personally I stick to the tried and true 7 pf over minimum. It seems I read some scientific or algebraic explanation on here for doing so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Huh I have never heard of that but I would agree that 5 pf is definitely the minimum I go, I usually shoot for like 172 ish (in my limited gun, I haven't done much open load work up) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.Elliott Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 When Mr. Bedell built my gun he advised me to stick around 170 pf. Of course, I just had to test that theory and find out for myself. Turns out he was right (bug surprise right?): nudge towards 165 and it gets too bouncy, nudge towards 180 it flattens out but gets hard, 170 is just right with good feedback on the dot and quick, neutral recovery. All powders tried yielded consistent results with the sweet spot varying slightly up or down off the mean depending on burn rate and gas volume. For best all around result, slowest burn (N105) gave the nicest overall dot tracking. Now if I could just get it for less than 70 bucks a pound..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Huh I have never heard of that but I would agree that 5 pf is definitely the minimum I go, I usually shoot for like 172 ish (in my limited gun, I haven't done much open load work up) The 7 rule has something to do with standard deviation / temp sensitivity, etc and assuring staying out of trouble at chrono more than it does about feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 When Mr. Bedell built my gun he advised me to stick around 170 pf. Of course, I just had to test that theory and find out for myself. Turns out he was right (bug surprise right?): nudge towards 165 and it gets too bouncy, nudge towards 180 it flattens out but gets hard, 170 is just right with good feedback on the dot and quick, neutral recovery. .. No doubt Dan knows his stuff when building guns. Also no doubt what is great for one shooter sucks for another. This is why we do load development and tons of research before buying a gun. They all work really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rishii Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 As I have stated many times in the past. Flat is nearly irrelevant. Predictable and repeatable is where it is at. I want a gun that does the exact same thing every time I pull the trigger. Of course i don't want some flippy mess, but most put too much time in searching for a "flat" gun which is actually a "squiggly" gun and harder to shoot that a "consistent" gun. +1I chased that holy grail for years, I had a gun that shot so flat the dot didn't go up, it dipped, and I couldn't shoot it worth a damn I took off the long heavy gazillion port comp, and put on a basic 3 port and my scores went up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I am working on making a truly "Flat" shooting Open gun setup right now. Its close, but not quite there right now. I think it is possible to produce a near zero dot displacement Open Major setup. But it takes a crap ton of objective observation while shooting, troubleshooting and retesting. Not many people are willing to put in that much effort to find a truly "Balanced" setup. I am finding that more often than not shooters tend to jump on one bandwagon or another and simply roll with however it ends up shooting. That isn't a bad thing as finding a setup that works reliably is good. But working "good" and fine tuning to make it work "Perfectly" are two totally different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadyscott999 Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 I am working on making a truly "Flat" shooting Open gun setup right now. Its close, but not quite there right now. I think it is possible to produce a near zero dot displacement Open Major setup. But it takes a crap ton of objective observation while shooting, troubleshooting and retesting. Not many people are willing to put in that much effort to find a truly "Balanced" setup. I am finding that more often than not shooters tend to jump on one bandwagon or another and simply roll with however it ends up shooting. That isn't a bad thing as finding a setup that works reliably is good. But working "good" and fine tuning to make it work "Perfectly" are two totally different things. We have had team guns that were so flat the dot merely wiggled side to side a bit. It was very hard to shoot with any speed. Shay opened the comp up a bit to allow some vertical rise and times in on the clock testing improved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aircooled6racer Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Hello: Flat is good but soft and flat is better. Thanks, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoyGlock Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 In my limited humble logic, if making the gun shoot flat means working on very high load/pressures that shooting it is virtually hammering the gun to short life span, Im not for it. I want my equipment to last that I can practice with it in a consistent constant set up for a long time so I can work on my skills continuously to higher levels. Repairing/replacing a gun usually dont replicate exactly its previous performance particularly in an open gun, no matter what and could temporarily hamper my training. With my very limited time ang my serious competitive nature, this is something I always consider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Open1215 Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) Well there has to be a happy medium. I am still looking for a nice soft and flat load for my gun. I'm currently settled on 9mm maj over 38 supercomp and hs-6 over 3n38 under a 115. I can't tell the difference between the two other then hs6 is a bit dirty... hs-6 is, however almost 1/2 the price, and I can get it local if NEEDED at 2 different stores. I'm going to shoot 124 and 115 with hs6 tomorrow and see what's what. Yes gas works the comp flat, but more powder to make gas,gives more kick that has to be countered by more gas and comp and more powder and more kick and more gas and so on N so on.. My point is there has to be a point of diminishing returns with all compensators set ups, porting powders, and bullet weight. Trick is to find the best combination for your gun. Not claiming to have found it! Edited November 10, 2015 by Open1215 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 I am working on making a truly "Flat" shooting Open gun setup right now. Its close, but not quite there right now. I think it is possible to produce a near zero dot displacement Open Major setup. But it takes a crap ton of objective observation while shooting, troubleshooting and retesting. Not many people are willing to put in that much effort to find a truly "Balanced" setup. I am finding that more often than not shooters tend to jump on one bandwagon or another and simply roll with however it ends up shooting. That isn't a bad thing as finding a setup that works reliably is good. But working "good" and fine tuning to make it work "Perfectly" are two totally different things. We have had team guns that were so flat the dot merely wiggled side to side a bit. It was very hard to shoot with any speed. Shay opened the comp up a bit to allow some vertical rise and times in on the clock testing improved. Maybe I am chasing a dead end. Either way it will be a fun voyage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selecw Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 The Witness Gold Team is my first open gun and I haven't shot any other open guns (altho' I have shot with a lot of red dots). I intend to classify with the Gold Team in January, so from now till then I am developing loads in my spare time and practising in between Limited practice sessions. It's been great fun so far. I am being held back much more by the trigger on the Gold Team (Henning flat trigger but even after tweaking still with an overlong reset and too much takeup) than the comp/load which is shooting pretty flat as far as my untrained eye can see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 I'm going to start a new thread with some videos I made today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Open1215 Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 well, today i shot HS-6 under 115 and 124g bullets. for me the 124 shot (SLIGHTLY) softer. it really wasnt much differance at all. however the dot tracked better with the 115g bullet. with the 124 the recovery seemed a it slower? the recovery was not as quick so the shooting was not as flat. tonight I plan to load WAC as well as CFE pistol under a 124. the plan is taste test them vs the hs6 and 124. I may also load 3n38 under a 124 and see how that goes. anyone using N105 under a 124? I found a load for 9x21 I may try with the same oal. not sure if ill hit major but ill try it and see. perhaps with slow N105 and a 124 ill find the sweet spot for my set up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Same here 115's are much better for me. Group together much tighter when hosing away. I use 7.8 WAC with MG 115's at 1.168. Do you plan to or have you already tried that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Open1215 Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Sarge... I believe I stole that exact load. Lol just looked at my log book to see what I had my wac and 115g at and sure enough, 7.8g to 1.168in. I only shot 5 a few days ago, seemed nice but I had to leave so I couldn't shoot more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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