Limited Major vs Minor

[Bkreutz]

So basically you want to render the V in the DVC meaningless?

It's hardly meaningless if a higher degree of accuracy is required with a lower Power Factor.

Why should major/minor even be in the same division if minor is both scoring disadvanted AND still less competitive?

Because there has to be a place to put a shooter that fails to make Major at Chrono.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Bkreutz

[sundevil827]

I had to double check, I thought this was the USPSA forum, not the IDPA forum?

Why is there a need to "right" every "wrong" in terms of scoring, or a need to make everything equal?

I think new shooters benefit the most from shooting production, and learning basic skills like how to reload, how to aim, and why shooting accurately should matter. I think something different than you, so that means it's wrong? Sure, Limited minor is an easy way for a person to be introduced to the sport, but I also don't see how a brand new shooter is aiming to be competitive in that first match anyhow. It's about having some fun, and being introduced to the sport in a safe, and enjoyable manner. Someone getting competitive requires a different mindset.

Let's invent more issues, so we can create some solutions! Seriously.....USPSA has enough other things to work on that this is fairly silly. I honestly don't think it does a thing to make the sport more attractive to a new shooter if that was the reason for the "solution" that was proposed.

Fix the stuff that needs fixing!

Straw man - no one made the argment that the reason was for new shooters. New shooters are disadvantaged primarily by core skills. The difference being discussed would be a nuance for new shooter.

I have been thinking the exact opposite - why don't experienced shooters choose a more accuracy intensive scoring model in Limited? Answer: Because minor scoring is clearly disadvantaged relative to major, therefore few if any serious competitors choose it if they intend to be competitive in the division.

Some may choose Limited minor for other reasons - accepting the fact that they start handicapped. Why should this be the case?

You should check the OP...he absolutely made the argument that it was better for new shooters...

Why should it be the case? That's like saying the guy who dropped out of 8th grade should get the same CEO job and pay of someone who spent years learning how. There doesn't have to be an equality, and I'm not sure where the sense of entitlement comes from. Don't like the rule, think it's unfair? Then either don't shoot the division, or shoot with it and deal with it.

Way bigger issues in USPSA to address than this.

[Red Ryder]

Because the increased accuracy requirement of minor scoring with a Limited gun is inherently interesting, but less interesting because of an artificial penalty with respect to major scoring.

Exactly. I don't want to change the minor scoring. I just think choosing to shoot 9 Minor in Limited is "over" penalized. Because of this, No super squaders shoot Limited in 9 Minor. If we aren't going to let 9 Minor in Limited be competitive, then let's get rid of it. If a shooter fails to make PF then hit him with the minor scoring. Don't let 9mm be used for Limited. If we are going to let 9mm be used for Limited, make it competitive.

[Forrest Halley]

Okay so number one it's 33.3···% increase in Revolver division, not 34%. It would round down to 33%, not up. It also changed the game completely by eliminating those standing reloads that were pivotal.

What you suggest with the happy making change to 170mm magazines to allow for more equality in Limited between major and minor is also a game changer. With the addition on the racker and a *thumb rest [generic]*, you're most of the way to an open gun with recoil control and prop-ability. So now we give 30 rounds and less recoil in a gun that is almost compensated, which gives it the ability to finish many stages without reloading and faster splits. Why not 170mm mags for all power factors? Then you can have 24 vs. 30 and have a 25% capacity increase....140mm mags already look stupid, so 170's can't possibly hurt worse...

Why can't you folks leave well enough alone? There's definitely nothing broken in Limited.

[teros135]

+1

Nothing broken, nothing to fix.

All this time yakking would be better spent at the range, yes?

[b1gcountry]

Because the increased accuracy requirement of minor scoring with a Limited gun is inherently interesting, but less interesting because of an artificial penalty with respect to major scoring.

If Lim minor is interesting, then shoot it. Why do you have to be competitive? You probably aren't good enough to win anyway.

[wtturn]

+1

Nothing broken, nothing to fix.

All this time yakking would be better spent at the range, yes?

That's crazy talk, sir.

[teros135]

Not crazy at all. People sometimes spend a whole lot of time trying to "solve" problems that aren't there, when their time would be better spent at the range (or dry firing), improving the skills that cause their "lack of competitiveness".

Edited October 7, 2015 by teros135

[9x45]

teros, well that's because everyone wants some new magic, instead of mastering the fundamentals! Oh that's too hard, and takes too much time and effort, well duh!

[Aircooled6racer]

Eric, I have a Rescomp tube with Bolen spring and follower and TTI basepad that runs with 22 in it. I thought it was amazing, then I realized 23 rds really dosnt get you anywhere.

The advantage with minor is diminished recoil. End of story.

Hello: I have one of those and some others that hold 22 rounds. Just wanted to see what is out there. I also have a 9mm mag that holds 25 rounds also. I think it may be possible for someone to shoot limited minor and win at the area level but not sure at the national level. 9mm is easier to shoot but again you have to be fast and accurate. Thanks, Eric

[Forrest Halley]

I have heard that the rescomps were not very stable at 22 rounds. I mean that they should only be topped off right before use and babied. Is this true?

[EkuJustice]

I think its fine as is. Is the 40 a better choice for limited, most would say yes as the slight capacity difference dosent outweigh the points lost in minor. Since you mentioned "budget wise shooters" what it sounds like is your a 3 gun shooter who dropped some coin on a decked out gamer 3gun 9mm since no Pf and 9mm gets you more rounds than 40 minor. Then decided to shoot some uspsa limited with it and realized it dosent work that well especially with the 2 on brown burn it down 3 gun shooting style so now we need to change to accommodate the ones who chose 9mm and if we dont make it competitive we should eliminate minor. Its all a choice no one is forcing someone to buy or shoot anything or buy or shoot competitive gear and we dont need to change the well know rules to accommodate someone who chooses to buy a poor choice for the game

I have heard that the rescomps were not very stable at 22 rounds. I mean that they should only be topped off right before use and babied. Is this true?

The rescomp are not as robust as the STI mags so you dont wanna drop them all the time especially if loaded. In my opinion the the 20 round reliable, reloadable STI mags should be the bread and butter mags. They dont need to be tweaked all the time, the springs last a decent amount of time and they dont need babied other than just wipe down if dirty(i dont clean mine just because they hit the ground). The one like the 22 rounder is one thats best used when it matters ie 22 round stage thats a very high hit factor flat out close, hose fest where you are basically on the trigger the entire time or one of those stages where the gun is loaded and they have all mags on a barrel and you can finish it with a 22 round mag and a 20 round guy cant. Use those only when it makes sense and will actually make a difference which is not vary often.

Edited October 8, 2015 by EkuJustice

[Red Ryder]

I think its fine as is. Is the 40 a better choice for limited, most would say yes as the slight capacity difference dosent outweigh the points lost in minor. Since you mentioned "budget wise shooters" what it sounds like is your a 3 gun shooter who dropped some coin on a decked out gamer 3gun 9mm since no Pf and 9mm gets you more rounds than 40 minor. Then decided to shoot some uspsa limited with it and realized it dosent work that well especially with the 2 on brown burn it down 3 gun shooting style so now we need to change to accommodate the ones who chose 9mm and if we dont make it competitive we should eliminate minor. Its all a choice no one is forcing someone to buy or shoot anything or buy or shoot competitive gear and we dont need to change the well know rules to accommodate someone who chooses to buy a poor choice for the game

Nope. No 3 gun.

[teros135]

Whatever. Long discussion, it's over. Let's just move on and go shooting, okay?

Edited October 8, 2015 by teros135

[Punished]

I think its fine as is. Is the 40 a better choice for limited, most would say yes as the slight capacity difference dosent outweigh the points lost in minor. Since you mentioned "budget wise shooters" what it sounds like is your a 3 gun shooter who dropped some coin on a decked out gamer 3gun 9mm since no Pf and 9mm gets you more rounds than 40 minor. Then decided to shoot some uspsa limited with it and realized it dosent work that well especially with the 2 on brown burn it down 3 gun shooting style so now we need to change to accommodate the ones who chose 9mm and if we dont make it competitive we should eliminate minor. Its all a choice no one is forcing someone to buy or shoot anything or buy or shoot competitive gear and we dont need to change the well know rules to accommodate someone who chooses to buy a poor choice for the game

Nope. No 3 gun.

Ok, then this brings up the question- why did you buy a 9mm STI to shoot Limited? super deal on the gun, or did you go through the same thought process I did at one time. I'll shoot 9mm to force me to be a better shooter and then realized it was a bad plan and jumped back to the 40sw gun. I do shoot 3gun so I'm not worried about having the 9mm still.

[PKT1106]

Red Ryder's name on the other forum is StrongHandOnly for a reason. He does a damn fantastic job shooting and has been shooting production since I met him up until this year. He has no complaints with needing to reload, he is just bringing a point that carries over from other divisions.

I have never heard him say anything was unfair and, to me, his mindset is trained to overcome adversity. I know he can speak for himself, but I wanted to make sure people know he is not coming from a complaining/bitching standpoint.

[Red Ryder]

To make Limited minor in 9mm a dilemma of choice, rather than clearly a disadvantage, I propose that we make major scoring 5-4-4-1 and minor scoring 5-4-3-1.

[teros135]

Fine like it is...

[Punished]

So take the current 5-4-4-2 for major and make it 5-4-4-1 and make D less a point? Then make minor from 5-3-3-1 to 5-4-3-1 with gaining a point for a B hit? That would do nothing to even anything out. Shoot a classic target and nothing has changed, and I can't see minor shooters going for more headshots on a metric target to make up for the points difference. Realistically, I can't see a way to make minor equal to major without throwing out the minor/major scoring differences. Or, call me crazy, you limit major to 15 rounds in the mag. lol

[teros135]

From another thread, about Single Stack major vs minor:

One more data point.

1st, 4th, 6th, 9th,10th all shot minor at the Kentucky State Championship.

That's half of the top 10 finishers shooting minor, half shooting major. Maybe not so lopsided after all.

[Warkitz]

If I shoot a stage all As and Cs with major say 5 targets in 12sec. My hit factor is 3.75. If someone else shooting minor shoot 4 targets double alphas and only one Alpha Charlie but they do it in 13 sec, their hit factor is 3.69. The person shooting major wins.

Unless you're shooting stages perfectly everytime as fast as the guy racing through stages not worrying about accuracy so much as speed, you're always going to be at a disadvantage. Also many of the stages with no shoots over laying targets tend to leave the A zone very small almost forcing you to shoot a bravo or Charlie.

Pressing for major isn't that big of an issue power factor is only 165. You can almost get power factor by loading the starting loads in the lee load data. I actually had to lower my powder below the starting load to get down to 167 from 175.

[Red Ryder]

I just believe that 9mm Limited minor should be a competitive choice. If we won't make some changes to make it a dilemma of choice rather than a clear disadvantage, then let's get rid of it.

I really do not want to drastically change the division like what happened in Revolver. I am not even sure we can tweek the rules in such a way that it becomes a dilemma of choice. But I think we can do better. A new shooter shows up with his G lock 17 or 34 and wants to hang with the big boys in Limited, because he doesn't want to complicate his learning with the more complicated stage breakdowns required for production and all the mag changes. He just wants to have fun. Then he realizes that if he wants to "feel" competitive he has to buy a 40 caliber gun and drop higher dollars on ammo. He or she loses interest and shoots a lot fewer matches or not at all. (Most people think it's the arrow, not the Indian )

I feel that it would be in the best interest of the sport to make, or at least give the appearance, that 9mm Limited Minor is a competitive choice. As it stands today 9 Limited minor is a clear disadvantage.

I am going to stick with it regardless. I chose it for personal reasons. This is something that I just noticed after shooting it for a while.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Red Ryder

[PatJones]

I thought we countered all your arguments over at the Doodie Project.

Ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Red Ryder]

I thought we countered all your arguments over at the Doodie Project.

Ain't broke, don't fix it.

That is your opinion. I have mine. If you want to intelligently add to the conversation, please do. Otherwise visit another topic.

[b1gcountry]

This thread can close now.