Limited Major vs Minor

[Red Ryder]

I shoot Limited minor, 23 plus one to start. But I don't think it's really a capacity issue, there is hardly a stage where you don't have plenty of time to change mags between arrays. I don't ever remember a stage in the last 15 years where you had a standing reload for Limited. It's set up for 8 rounds per. If your'e moving, your'e reloading. It's really all about the V, and the USPSA board is not going to change that. They just now let .357SIG as major in Limited. Course it's the same capacity as 40S&W.....

So what do you suggest we do to make Limited minor more competitive? We all know that it is not competitive and that's why the big boys go Major.

[Red Ryder]

Limited Major = 21

Limited minor = 24 if you're lucky

15% capacity advantage

There are 22 round .40 mags and 24 round 9mm magazines. The capacity advantage would only be just over 9%.

Right! You see the disparagement. I say we should increase mag length for Limited minor, thus increasing capacity.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: What gun gets 22 rounds of 40 in the mag and still fit the gauge? Thanks, Eric

[teros135]

I don't get this thread. Who says Limited isn't "competitive"? A whole Division isn't "competitive"? What does that mean? Please explain.

("Not competitive" is one of the arguments used by the CO folks, although the bottom line there is still that they want to shoot what they want to shoot. They got their wish, and it looks like some are having fun.)

Major or minor, the bottom line is still shooter skill (except perhaps Revolver, where the extra reload per 8-round view can make Major a real problem).

You shoot Limited if you want the advantages of higher-cap mags, more flexible equipment positioning, and Major scoring. If you want to shoot it in Minor and get the "advantage" of less recoil and more rounds in the mag, go for it, but you'll still get beat by the guys (and gals) who now beat you, unless you learn to shoot more Alphas.

Everyone gets to choose what they want to shoot, and shoot it. But let's stop complaining about "not competitive". The harder it's pushed at us, the more it sounds like "I'm not competitive, so I want different rules".

Edited October 6, 2015 by teros135

[9x45]

teros, absolutely correct! I want a sub compact conceal carry minor floor senior division. I will rock out with my Kahr CW9! Those Open guys got nothing on me, well, except for capacity, optics, no recoil, holster position, doesn't matter. Let them try to draw from appendix concealed!

[wgj3]

Eric, I have a Rescomp tube with Bolen spring and follower and TTI basepad that runs with 22 in it. I thought it was amazing, then I realized 23 rds really dosnt get you anywhere.

The advantage with minor is diminished recoil. End of story.

Edited October 6, 2015 by wgj3

[al503]

Hello: What gun gets 22 rounds of 40 in the mag and still fit the gauge? Thanks, Eric

Rescomp 138mm tube with the older TTI follower and spring and 3mm TTI basepad.

Eric, I have a Rescomp tube with Bolen spring and follower and TTI basepad that runs with 22 in it. I thought it was amazing, then I realized 23 rds really dosnt get you anywhere.

The advantage with minor is diminiahed recoil. End of story.

Exactly. Rescomp tube with Bolen guts and 3mm basepad. IIRC, I remember hearing something about Manny winning a stage at Nationals (or some major) where he was the only one that started the stage with 23. Everyone else had to make a mag change and that was about the difference.

[Red Ryder]

The bottom line is that I think that Limited minor is not competitive.... and so do the majority of others. Why should we, as a group of budget wise shooters dismiss that? It should be closer to a wash if one chooses to shoot limited major or minor with their respective advantages and disadvantages.... but it is not a wash. I think limited minor is punished too much. I think we could bring it closer to a wash with an increase in mag capacity for choosing to shoot minor. With the current rules in place it is no where near a wash. I believe it would add to the integrity of the sport to make Limited minor competitive and let the shooter choose which caliber to shoot. I do not believe we can perfectly make it a wash, but we can come a little closer with an increase in mag capacity closer to 26 or 27.

I didn't invent this problem. It existed long before I got involved in this sport. Maybe I am the first person to address it.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Red Ryder

[wgj3]

There is not a "problem"!

Limited is the only Division where we still have recoil. As others have said, there is a "V" for a reason. Wanna get rid of recoil and/or have more rnds per mag, shoot Open. There is ZERO advantage to "minor" in Open, but you can certainly do it.

I think that Major/Minor PF even existing at all is a concession to the founding principles of the sport. Each Division (Open, Limited, Revo, SS) had a PF to meet. Over time BOD made concessions to allow people to shoot Minor in those Divisions for score. It wasnt to make Minor equally competitive; but rather to allow folk who didnt want to shoot Major ammo to play.

The reason Revo changed was because you can get more 9mm into the same cylinder; no dimensional changes. SS changed because you can get more 9mm/38 into the same box/magazine.

Not to mention the new 3-way mag gauge that would be required...crazy talk...bordering on blasphemy even.

Edited October 6, 2015 by wgj3

[Bkreutz]

There is not a "problem"!

Limited is the only Division where we still have recoil. As others have said, there is a "V" for a reason. Wanna get rid of recoil and/or have more rnds per mag, shoot Open. There is ZERO advantage to "minor" in Open, but you can certainly do it.

I think that Major/Minor PF even existing at all is a concession to the founding principles of the sport. Each Division (Open, Limited, Revo, SS) had a PF to meet. Over time BOD made concessions to allow people to shoot Minor in those Divisions for score. It wasnt to make Minor equally competitive; but rather to allow folk who didnt want to shoot Major ammo to play.

The reason Revo changed was because you can get more 9mm into the same cylinder; no dimensional changes. SS changed because you can get more 9mm/38 into the same box/magazine.

Not to mention the new 3-way mag gauge that would be required...crazy talk...bordering on blasphemy even.

Oh no, you can't send him over to Open to get rid of him. I won't stand for it.

[PatJones]

The bottom line is that I think that Limited minor is not competitive.... and so do the majority of others. Why should we, as a group of budget wise shooters dismiss that? It should be closer to a wash if one chooses to shoot limited major or minor with their respective advantages and disadvantages.... but it is not a wash. I think limited minor is punished too much. I think we could bring it closer to a wash with an increase in mag capacity for choosing to shoot minor. With the current rules in place it is no where near a wash. I believe it would add to the integrity of the sport to make Limited minor competitive and let the shooter choose which caliber to shoot. I do not believe we can perfectly make it a wash, but we can come a little closer with an increase in mag capacity closer to 26 or 27.

I didn't invent this problem. It existed long before I got involved in this sport. Maybe I am the first person to address it.

If you want to be "competitive" shooting minor, shoot revolver, single stack, production or carry optics.

[dsb]

When this game was invented, there were two primary platforms, the .45 with an ~8 round capacity, and the Hi-Power with a ~14 round capacity. Major PF was ~200 (based on a 230grn .45 going 950 fps if I remember correctly), and minor PF was 125. Whether the scoring was implemented to reward the more powerful round, or to penalize the minor round to make up for the capacity advantage, I don't really know, but given that the name of the game is hit factor, this allowed .45s and Hi-Powers to play on basically a level field.

People used to actually consider major/minor parity wrt. stages, and there were more than a few 'discussions' when either a major or minor shooter thought that a stage favored the other.

Obviously, things have changed, you now have major caliber guns that have capacities greater than the Hi-Power, and with major PF being 165 you can run a gun shooting major just as fast as one shooting minor. I don't know what the rules would have looked like if the current technology had been available then, but it's obvious that there's no parity in the game today, at least not in Open/Limited.

If you wanted to introduce more parity, you could 'limit' major to 15 rounds, this would mean that on a 32 round COF there would be two reloads. Raising the capacity further (24+ rounds) won't help, major shooters will still only have to do 1 reload.

I'm all for parity, but you guys do what you want...

[b1gcountry]

If minor ever makes sense in a match, then there will be minor shooters at an advantage at certain matches and major shooters at an advantage at others. This means that top shooters will have to bring both major and minor guns to important matches so they will have the platform that can win at that match.

A lot of top shooters bring backup guns too. So, now the cost of limited guns just went up by eight grand if you want to win at nationals.

This is exactly what happened with ss major and minor.

Revolver doesn't matter in general, but in this case 8-shot minor has eliminated 6-shot major.

We have 2 divisions that shoot minor, 2 that shoot major, and 1 that shoots both competitively. That sounds like a good mix to me.

Ps, I know I didn't list co or l10.

[Beastly]

So basically you want to render the V in the DVC meaningless?

It's hardly meaningless if a higher degree of accuracy is required with a lower Power Factor.

Why should major/minor even be in the same division if minor is both scoring disadvanted AND still less competitive?

[Beastly]

I had to double check, I thought this was the USPSA forum, not the IDPA forum?

Why is there a need to "right" every "wrong" in terms of scoring, or a need to make everything equal?

I think new shooters benefit the most from shooting production, and learning basic skills like how to reload, how to aim, and why shooting accurately should matter. I think something different than you, so that means it's wrong? Sure, Limited minor is an easy way for a person to be introduced to the sport, but I also don't see how a brand new shooter is aiming to be competitive in that first match anyhow. It's about having some fun, and being introduced to the sport in a safe, and enjoyable manner. Someone getting competitive requires a different mindset.

Let's invent more issues, so we can create some solutions! Seriously.....USPSA has enough other things to work on that this is fairly silly. I honestly don't think it does a thing to make the sport more attractive to a new shooter if that was the reason for the "solution" that was proposed.

Fix the stuff that needs fixing!

Straw man - no one made the argment that the reason was for new shooters. New shooters are disadvantaged primarily by core skills. The difference being discussed would be a nuance for new shooter.

I have been thinking the exact opposite - why don't experienced shooters choose a more accuracy intensive scoring model in Limited? Answer: Because minor scoring is clearly disadvantaged relative to major, therefore few if any serious competitors choose it if they intend to be competitive in the division.

Some may choose Limited minor for other reasons - accepting the fact that they start handicapped. Why should this be the case?

Edited October 6, 2015 by Beastly

[dsb]

If minor ever makes sense in a match, then there will be minor shooters at an advantage at certain matches and major shooters at an advantage at others. This means that top shooters will have to bring both major and minor guns to important matches so they will have the platform that can win at that match.

If 'they' went to the 15 rnd major/20+ rnd minor scheme, I could show up at any given match with my 10mm SVi Limited gun, and based on what the COF looked like I could shoot it either minor with 20+ loaded or major with 15 loaded, both with 165+ PF ammo. If I want to go to the expense of being a real 'gamer' I could bring 125+ PF ammo (and the appropriate recoil spring) as well, and shoot that if I chose the minor route, but I doubt that would be much of an advantage.

Of course, if I were a Super Squad-er, and someone was giving me guns and ammo, I could show up with multiple iterations of all of the above, optimized for their specific roles, and backups to boot, but it probably wouldn't matter because I'd be too distracted by the groupies and autograph hounds to shoot well anyway.

YMMV

[wgj3]

I've read the post above before...

[Punished]

I enjoy reading threads like these as they just seem to go round and round..... there will always be someone who doesn't like the current rules/laws, except they work just fine and we don't need to change them because a few people want to shoot limited minor and be equally as competitive as the people shooting major. That is life, the division is built for major guns.

If 3 gun and USPSA shifted to run the exact same rules and scoring, I could see there being a shift since 3gun uses 9mm. Then everyone who wants to shoot both games with 1 gun would be able to competitively.

If you wanted to be smart about this actually working- why would you make a 3rd mag size? We already have 140 and 170. You would make life easier by allowing a 170 tube to be used for minor. Now you can shoot every stage like a hoser, except you will realize that pretty much every stage has some spot that a 21 round major mag can be reloaded without an issue and the whole thing is a wash.

I personally don't see any way of making these equally competitive without them being scored the same.

[PKT1106]

I can see the arguement, other divisions get more length or capacity for minor. I think it has more validity than creating a new division for a niche gun.

However, with limited guns already getting 19-22 rounds of 40, I dont see where you would get an advantage for adding more for minor.

To me, having a 26-27 round 9mm mag for limited means I might be leaving more rounds in a mag at a reload spot. Am I going to try to go 3 arrays on a mag? Probably not.

[Red Ryder]

I propose that shooters that shoot 9 minor in limited be able to use 170mm mags. I think it would close the competitive gap. It would allow more choices in how to shoot a stage and would, with some stages, eliminate a reload.

[Corey]

WHY exactly do we want to close the "competitive gap" though? Why do they have to be equal? Isn't the point of Major PF to give you a bit of a scoring advantage anyway (other than A hits). I guess I don't see a problem as it is and can't see where extended mags would help that much. I've shot Limited almost exclusively for 4 years now and there have been very few stages that an extra 3 rounds would help. I'm almost always doing a reload after 14-18 rounds, stage depending. Yes, on a stage that has 25 rounds, it might save you a reload, but with a single reload per stage (usually) I'm not worried since its not a standing reload. I don't feel like I'm losing any time in that situation but I'm darn sure getting more points at the end of the stage.

Why not just sell the 9mm 2011 I'm guessing you own and shoot a .40 like just about everyone else?

[Beastly]

Because the increased accuracy requirement of minor scoring with a Limited gun is inherently interesting, but less interesting because of an artificial penalty with respect to major scoring.

[cnote]

Trying to all things equal will be (is) the downfall of the sport, not to mention society.

[Beastly]

Trying to all things equal will be (is) the downfall of the sport, not to mention society.

So dVC is superior to DVC?

[ParaGunner]

You want to be more competitive in limited division? Then put in the work, practice! Don't change the rules so you'll be more competitive, change your skill level and be competitive.