zhunter Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 (edited) As CO is getting up and running the tuning of a CZ P-09 might be of interest. As a trigger snob I have messed with several different setups and had some issues that I thought I would share. There are two separate hammer spring plugs you can use, and each will give you different results with the same spring setup. The original hammer spring plug has the lanyard ring which I feel is an invitation to invite Mr. Murphy to the match. After emailing with the DNROI about chopping the ring from the original hammer spring plug and as expected being told it would be an external modification and not allowed I got creative. I ordered a P-07 hammer spring plug as it is legal to use on the P-09. The '07 plug is somewhat different and leaves a hole in the plug area as it is shorter than the '09 plug. But the '07 plug puts less pressure on the spring than the '09 plug. With that out of the way lets get into the actual springs and what they do. '09 Plug 1) Using the CGW 11.5# spring (CZ75) I was able to get a 5.21 DA and a 2.11# SA. This was great and certainly well within my acceptable range of trigger pull. '07 Plug 1) Using the dedicated CGW P-09 Blue (13#) hammer spring I was getting 5.19# DA and a 2.12# SA reading. I shot this in a match and had some instances where the hammer dropped to DA when it should have been in SA mode. A DA trigger pull would subsequently work, but obviously it is a bit disconcerting in the middle of a stage for the trigger to change position from what is expected. Today I went to the range and had a long practice session and this continued (maybe 3 times per 50 rounds), but being a non-match situation I was able to stop and evaluate. Upon retuning home I contacted David at CGW and started asking questions thinking there was an issue with either the hammer and or the sear. As soon as I described my setup David told me it is an issue with this platform that using hammer springs that light in the P-09 polymer frame creates a "sear bounce" due to the flexing of the frame that allows the hammer to fall to the DA position. David explained there were two courses of action to cure this problem, install an extra strong sear spring which would make the SA pull higher, or use a stiffer hammer spring which would more likely affect the DA pull. To me compromising the DA is preferable as there is only one DA pull per stage at the most. So I did the following: '07 Plug 2) Using a dedicated P-09 CGW Gold (15#) hammer spring I am now getting 5.60# DA and 2.45# SA. This is my current set up and will test this setup next week. I can see it as a possibility I will need to use the yellow "self defense" 18# hammer spring with the '07 hammer spring plug. I'm pretty confident that using the '09 hammer plug and a 13# spring will be more than enough to eliminate the "sear bounce". Edited to add: All of the above testing was done with Winchester primers, so the light springs are plenty stout to light up the primers, this is a frame flex issue. I will update below and edit this post as further testing is done next week. Edited August 28, 2015 by zhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandflea Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Awesome info, thanks for sharing! Looks like I'm ordering some P-07 plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogiebb Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Great Info.. Thanks Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsa Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 How is the over travel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted August 28, 2015 Author Share Posted August 28, 2015 How is the over travel? I have virtually no over-travel using CGW internals, and a super short reset. Not sure what factory is like as I Cajunized mine right away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racingjoe27 Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 So what other parts do you have in there and/or what have you done to them? I was told the DA on my p09 was 6 pounds but it feels like it's over 8! Also my SA take-up, over travel, and reset feel long Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted August 29, 2015 Author Share Posted August 29, 2015 (edited) So what other parts do you have in there and/or what have you done to them? I was told the DA on my p09 was 6 pounds but it feels like it's over 8! Also my SA take-up, over travel, and reset feel long I have the over sized roller, reduced power firing pin spring, I bent the trigger bar lifting spring to have less force on the trigger bar. I have the comp hammer. CGW disco, extended firing pin and reduced power firing pin spring and reduced power firing pin lifter spring.All these add up. Also polishing on the trigger bar Edited August 29, 2015 by zhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punished Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 So thoughts here about buying a p09. CZ Custom will mill the slide for $180. Or for I believe $818 you can buy a premilled gun with a trigger job. Anyone know how that would stack as opposed to having it milled and then doing Cajun trigger parts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted August 29, 2015 Author Share Posted August 29, 2015 So thoughts here about buying a p09. CZ Custom will mill the slide for $180. Or for I believe $818 you can buy a premilled gun with a trigger job. Anyone know how that would stack as opposed to having it milled and then doing Cajun trigger parts? Interesting question. New gun $460ish CGW parts about $125 Springer Precision milling and Keracoting $120ish The Springer milling will be specific to the dot you are installing. Certainly CZC is a one stop shop and they do awesome work. CZ's are easy to work on and I've liked getting to know both my Shadows and P-09's, I would have never worked on my 1911's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punished Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Probably hard to find someone who can compare the CZC $180 trigger package to the CGW $125 kit. Roughly $100-$150 for the optic cut seems to be the average. Probably just playing with pennies here, but maybe thats why people want to call this WO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted August 29, 2015 Author Share Posted August 29, 2015 Probably hard to find someone who can compare the CZC $180 trigger package to the CGW $125 kit. Roughly $100-$150 for the optic cut seems to be the average. Probably just playing with pennies here, but maybe thats why people want to call this WO. Punished I don't think it's a money issue in choosing, I think it's pretty much a wash money wise either way. It's more a matter of buying it ready to go or doing it yourself and having a better understanding of how your gun works and being better prepared to fix it at home or at a match should something break (typically on a CZ its a slide stop or a TRS). I have a lot of time, so I like doing it myself. I own 3 CZC Shadows, 2 were purchased with the full custom trigger etc. The last one I bought "stock" and did the work myself as I felt I could do it after reading threads/watching videos. It took me about 4 hours going slow and I in fact ended up with a trigger equal to my CZC trigger jobs. I have 2 P-09's that I have done the work myself and you can see above its going well. Obviously I'm still searching for the sweet spot on the polymer frame, but I feel I'm about there if not there already. I'm in no way advocating one choice or the other, but rather making the choices known and showing the options when working with different spring and plug configurations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punished Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Very true. The p09 will be a new platform for me so I'll probably pay for the slide mulling and install all the parts on my own. I've only been shooting a 2011 platform for the past few years so this will be a change for me and hopefully a good one. Now I just need to order one and the stoeger drop holster. Always enjoyed fine tuning parts so this thread has been awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 This division will be good for the P07 and P09. Will push to tune the guns. They are still ehhhh, but a whole bunch better than out of the box. Happy with my P09, with some simple work. We have been playing with iron sights in combination with the dot . Looks promising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punished Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Eerw, you are co witnessing the dot with irons? I was looking to remove the irons all together. My other option is m&p core realistically. But I'm wanting to try something new and the CZ has always felt right in my hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave33 Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Eerw, you are co witnessing the dot with irons? I was looking to remove the irons all together. My other option is m&p core realistically. But I'm wanting to try something new and the CZ has always felt right in my hands. I would be curios to know that. From what I've seen so far the P09 supposedly doesn't have the room necessary to co-witness. At least with a FF3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted August 29, 2015 Author Share Posted August 29, 2015 I'm not getting the co-witness thing for a competition gun. Even if it's a fail safe thing in case your dot stops working, I doubt it would be easy to see the sights very well with the Dot there in between. If the sights are so high that the irons are readily usable, then your sight picture for your dot is all cluttered up. For competition use, I'd pick one or the other Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 I like the dot only set up. Iron sights get in the way of seeing with the dot. Its kind of funny, if you have any open gun experience, the back up irons is moot, if this the entry into dots, then they ask about iron sights. So people are asking, working on an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 I yanked the front sight off my XDM as the red fiber optic was giving me double vision with the DeltaPoint. And when I say 'yanked', I am being literal, I couldn't drift it out as it was so tight so I twisted it off with a pair of pliers... #whoneedsagunsmith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punished Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 I fully understand buis if you are making a carry/battle gun in case the dot fails you can still be in the fight. The funny thing though, if the lense has condensation or anything it distorts your front sight picture anyway and it's not much use to you. Thankfully CO does not say anything about having to maintain irons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ranger Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 I normally work on my own pistols but when I decided to try a CZ P09, I just bought the P09 with PRO Package from Cajun Gun Works. It was kind of nice just taking the pistol out of the box and going to the range. I moved from S&W M&Ps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPostman Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 This will be my CO gun for sure. I'm Glad I have a mill and can do my own slide milling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted September 1, 2015 Author Share Posted September 1, 2015 (edited) Today's range report, with some extra info Had a 500 round livefire session today, the spring/plug combination above works. Just to confirm though: '07 hammer spring plug with a CGW Blue 13# hammer spring This worked very well today, I had no sear follow issues at all. I'm using a CGW CZ 75 series red 12# recoil spring. This is on the light side. Shooting a dot today doing lots of Bill Drills I was paying close attention to how the dot tracked in rapid fire. The dot never (at least not noticably) dipped below my point of aim which leads me to believe the 12# spring is just about right for my shooting style/grip. Certainly an over-sprung gun would have have the dot dipping below my point of aim during the recoil impulse. Warning You better be case gauging your ammo! I was shooting some of my match reject ammo today and I did have some fail to get into battery instances. This never happened with the match grade ammo I was using today. So the warning is IF you are going to use a 12# recoil spring, you better be case gauging your ammo! New topic: I have been aware of a magazing design issue for a while now, I have confirmed on the timer that I believe the magazine design is not ideal for consistent smokin' fast reloads. I have a call into CZC and waiting for them to return my call. If something can't be done to correct this I will have to look to have my magazines altered by an outside source. Edited September 2, 2015 by zhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z40acp Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I wish MecGar would start making these mags. Maybe out of stainless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjdaniel78 Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Z, I run an 11 lbs Glock 17 IMSI flat wire spring and I can 1000% echo you statement of case gauging. I now put rejects into a bucket for use in a gun with a looser chamber (i.e.: my S&W Shield). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjdaniel78 Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 (edited) double tap Edited September 2, 2015 by cjdaniel78 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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