JAFO Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 (edited) Must be nice to make a product that on your website says it will make power factor yet when it doesn't , it is the guy's fault that bought it that it didn't chrono, because he didn't test their product before he shot an out of state match. I know I will never buy their ammo. It's really not uncommon for advertised velocity to be different from what you chrono from your gun. Manufacturers show velocity results from a test barrel, which is going to be different from the gun you fire it from. There's no guarantee, stated or implied, that it will make that velocity for you. Since they usually don't list their uncertainty, you don't even know if the advertised velocity is the median or the high end. My Dad had never shot any kind of competition before, and I talked him into trying it out. I ordered a case of Prvi Partizan 124gr FMJ for him to use with my backup gun when he came to visit last time. It's advertised as being 1099 fps, which should put it at 136PF. When I chrono'd it from my 4.4" P226, it made 125PF averaged over 20 rounds. He's probably never going to shoot anything other than local matches around here, so it's not a huge problem. But if I was buying that for a LII, LIII, or especially Nationals, I would be sweating the chrono stage. Edited August 21, 2015 by JAFO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fergus556 Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Check your ammo in your gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 (edited) I never said they guarantee it to make power factor.You asked what there responsibility was,Must be nice to make a product that on your website says it will make power factor yet when it doesn't , it is the guy's fault that bought it that it didn't chrono, because he didn't test their product before he shot an out of state match.I know I will never buy their ammo. it is the guy's fault for leaving his major match to chance by not personally checking everything that is within his control. I don't buy match ammo so I don't have this issue but even though I've chronoed my ammo before & know that it easily makes PF & have not changed my load in over 2 years I still chrono the ammo I plan to shoot at a major the week prior to the match every time --- leave nothing to chance or expect to eventually pay the price Edited August 23, 2015 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdpaz Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Apparently all you cool experienced guys entered this sport fully up to speed. That must have been awesome for you but it isn't like that for everyone. Yes, by the rules the shooter is responsible for his ammo but it is really beyond compression that a new shooter might take the statement that the ammo makes power factor at face value? I agree that it should be chalked up as a "lesson learned" for the shooter but I don't understand the free pass given to the manufacturer. If it is unreasonable to expect ammo to make power factor why does nobody care that the manufacturer is making false claims on his website to sell his product? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrydoc Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 The problem is bdpaz it may well make factor in some guns, so they may not be as you put it 'making false claims' Unfortunately it just didn't in old mates. Do we know what it failed by? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted August 23, 2015 Author Share Posted August 23, 2015 It was 122.6 On the website it published power factors, said it makes minor power factor. There is no asterisk, no disclaimer saying it may not make power factor in all guns. They said it makes minor power factor and it didn't. So you buy their ammo, having faith in their product to do what they say it will, and it is your fault for not checking to make sure it will chrono. I will never buy their ammo, I will also let people know that it didn't pass chrono at a major match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clawson2011 Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Wait. Competitor friend spends all the money to fly to a major match (match fees, airline tickets, food, rental car, and lodging), Said competitor has been shooting long enough in this sport to feel confident going to a major match, Production Nationals? i'm assuming, and said competitor purchases ammo that is not official match ammo. Said ammo fails to make Minor PF in said competitors firearm and it is the ammo manufacturers fault it went minor. Your right string the company up by their shoe laces and flog them in public to everyone. It couldn't possible be the fault of said shooting not first making sure ammo makes minor in said competitors personal firearm. We all know that a CZ sp-01, stock II, Glock G___, S&W M&P and any other production gun all make the same velocity no matter what as the variables don't matter. Next thing said shooter will want us to pay for his next trip to a major because its our fault the ammo didn't make PF and we all are being harsh. If the ammo manufacturer is at fault post where they guarantee that their ammo will make minor in all firearms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdpaz Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Wait. Competitor friend spends all the money to fly to a major match (match fees, airline tickets, food, rental car, and lodging), Said competitor has been shooting long enough in this sport to feel confident going to a major match, Production Nationals? i'm assuming, and said competitor purchases ammo that is not official match ammo. Said ammo fails to make Minor PF in said competitors firearm and it is the ammo manufacturers fault it went minor. Your right string the company up by their shoe laces and flog them in public to everyone. It couldn't possible be the fault of said shooting not first making sure ammo makes minor in said competitors personal firearm. We all know that a CZ sp-01, stock II, Glock G___, S&W M&P and any other production gun all make the same velocity no matter what as the variables don't matter. Next thing said shooter will want us to pay for his next trip to a major because its our fault the ammo didn't make PF and we all are being harsh. If the ammo manufacturer is at fault post where they guarantee that their ammo will make minor in all firearms. So you see nothing wrong with advertising that the ammo "makes power factor"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted August 23, 2015 Author Share Posted August 23, 2015 They say it makes minor. Posts it on their website, no wording saying it may or may not make minor in all firearms. Just a blanket statement that it makes minor, with no exclusions. But it is the customers fault it went minor and he believed what they said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clawson2011 Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 What company? Pm me the company so I can see exactly what the website says/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdpaz Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 (edited) What company? Pm me the company so I can see exactly what the website says/Why? No one so far has questioned whether or not the shooter missed a disclaimer. Many of you have just mocked him for not having the experience to know that the blanket statement of "making power factor" couldn't be true. Edited August 23, 2015 by bdpaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Really? Why isn't the actual shooter posting, instead of his friend. Or is "The Friend" the actual shooter? Nobody, not Nobody, goes to a Major USPSA match without knowing they can make the power floor. As already has been said, cost of flying, hotel, rental car, meals, match fees, and you can't chrono your ammo at least 3 months before you leave? And like I said before, you don't decide to go to a Major Area Match a week before, because, WELL, you can't get in anyway. TROLL THREAD! How can any shooter who has more than a dozen matches under their belt not know that? Maybe this is a new Division, Short Bus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 (edited) If I was new I'd have been pissed as well. I don't think it's than unreasonable to have the level of trust he showed for the level of experience he had. Cruddy lesson, but lesson learned. He could/should contact the manufacturer and include a scan of his chrono sheet and ask for some sort of restitution. If they don't you at least tried and the lesson is still learned. I know someone who went to this years Prod Nationals on a whim, deciding the week before as an unclassified shooter with only 4 uspsa matches under their belt. People do go to big matches will much less experience or knowledge than we'd sometimes think is reasonable. More than one manufacturer has said they made minor pf and then it didn't. I normally now see a disclaimer right after that claim. I spent a lot of time and money resisting reloading. Now that I've been doing it I couldn't imagine competing any other way. Edited August 23, 2015 by rowdyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Rowdy, you are far too kind! Who would spend over $2,000 to go to a Major, and not spend $100 on a chrono to make sure they made the floor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Rowdy, you are far too kind! Who would spend over $2,000 to go to a Major, and not spend $100 on a chrono to make sure they made the floor? Evidently the type of person who reads "minor pf ammo" on a website and buys it and ships it to the match without ever shooting it over a chrono. I know many people who shoot a match every weekend who don't own a chrono. I'm always surprised at the people who want to shoot over the chrono with me when I bring one as they don't have one of their own. And thank you for the too kind comment. I'd heard the opposite lately hahahaha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrydoc Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 It was 122.6 On the website it published power factors, said it makes minor power factor. There is no asterisk, no disclaimer saying it may not make power factor in all guns. They said it makes minor power factor and it didn't. So you buy their ammo, having faith in their product to do what they say it will, and it is your fault for not checking to make sure it will chrono. I will never buy their ammo, I will also let people know that it didn't pass chrono at a major match. We have had guys with their own reloads fail chrono at major matches by cutting too close to the numbers, the ammo passed at home but then at the match it fails, mostly it's from Major to minor but I do know of cases where it's shoot for no score. It can be differences in air temp sea level heights any number of things get thrown around as to why. Our club chrono seems to show at least 2 factors lower than most peoples and it's the one used for our State Champs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted August 23, 2015 Author Share Posted August 23, 2015 Really? Why isn't the actual shooter posting, instead of his friend. Or is "The Friend" the actual shooter? Nobody, not Nobody, goes to a Major USPSA match without knowing they can make the power floor. As already has been said, cost of flying, hotel, rental car, meals, match fees, and you can't chrono your ammo at least 3 months before you leave? And like I said before, you don't decide to go to a Major Area Match a week before, because, WELL, you can't get in anyway. TROLL THREAD! How can any shooter who has more than a dozen matches under their belt not know that? Maybe this is a new Division, Short Bus. Production Nationals. See who didn't shoot for score. There is no disclaimer on Freedom Munitions website about power factor. It says .40 S&W and .45 make major power factor and 9mm make minor. Google Freedom Munitions Power Factor and it will take you to the website. Match was in Illinois, guy livea in Florida, he flew there. Where is he going to chronic it, in the parking lot of the hotel or the match? He was not the only shooter that went sub minor, not sure who's ammo the other person was using, she us a popular well known shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted August 23, 2015 Author Share Posted August 23, 2015 What company? Pm me the company so I can see exactly what the website says/ Freedom Munitions. There is no disclaimer on their website I saw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yasko Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Some shooters don't really man up to the responsibility of their equipment. Going to a Major match is planned way ahead of time, and almost always sufficient time to prepare and plan. I guess they just want to blame everybody but THEM! Personally, i'm not comfortable using ammo which i've not tested or had personal knowledge on how it performs with my guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Freedom Munitions mentions "USPSA" (and others) for many types of it's ammo but makes the statement about minor power factor only for its 9mm "Supermatch" ammo. Was your friend using that ammo? Also, you mentioned that he used a CZ. Which model was it? Was the barrel factory? (Freedom makes pretty good ammo, which many use for practice. They've been very responsive to customer service issues and have replaced ammo that chrono'd low (everyone has bad lots - again, chrono before match). Has your friend contacted them and asked for a refund for the match portion of the shipment?) He was not the only shooter that went sub minor, not sure who's ammo the other person was using, she us a popular well known shooter. According to the Prod Nats thread (under Match Announcements) the Lady shooter was Tori from the Glock team. There was apparently a screw-up with the bullets; they were supposed to be 147s but they were actually 115s. (Loading 115s with the lower 147-gr powder load gives you a drop in velocity and thus PF. The writer said she chrono'd at 110, which is about right.) *Everybody* needs to chrono before higher-level matches, especially the national championships! Production Nationals.See who didn't shoot for score. Hmm. Tori doesn't show up on the results at all, even at the bottom with the zero scores (many of those either DQd or didn't show up. It was a large match and you usually get some folks with illnesses, etc.). Match was in Illinois, guy livea in Florida, he flew there.Where is he going to chronic it, in the parking lot of the hotel or the match? Well, no, he's probably not actually going to chrono ammo in the hotel parking lot. He could probably chrono at the match, in an area designated (or requested) for equipment testing, but nobody's going to want to wait until the last minute and hope that their ammo makes PF. As many have suggested above, it makes sense to have the ammo sent to you well before the match, chrono it at your home range, and then send it on to the match (shipping via USPS One-Rate box is about $15 for the Medium box). Your friend seems to have known enough to sign up for the match, bring Division-legal equipment and have it placed properly on his belt, knew match procedures and safety issues, etc. However, he seems to have made a naive mistake regarding the ammo. Now he (and many others) knows about use of the chronograph as part of match preparation. (It's mentioned many places on BE. For the newbies, just use the BE search feature or google "chrono pf site:brianenos.com" He might also want to register with BE and tell his own story, and have a dialogue with us directly instead of through the OP. He would also be able to take advantage of the treasure trove of information available here. Hope we can finally let this thread go. We know what happened and what to do. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulm540 Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Live and learn albeit an expensive practice session. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctay Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 (shipping via USPS One-Rate box is about $15 for the Medium box.) Shipping ammo with USPS is also illegal so please don't do that. Ups or FedEx. Shipping ammo for a national match that hasn't been chronoed is not an uncommon mistake. I don't blame a new shooter for taking the manufacturers word for it. He should have verified if possible - but sometimes that's not practically possible. That extra, next level caution is something you get from an experience like this. As was pointed out, it really isn't possible to guarantee that a certain ammo will meet a specific power factor in every gun. I would recommend the manufacturer add some caveats to their site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 (shipping via USPS One-Rate box is about $15 for the Medium box.) Shipping ammo with USPS is also illegal so please don't do that. Ups or FedEx. Oops - thinking about bullets. My mistake. Thanks for the heads-up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clawson2011 Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Really? Why isn't the actual shooter posting, instead of his friend. Or is "The Friend" the actual shooter? Nobody, not Nobody, goes to a Major USPSA match without knowing they can make the power floor. As already has been said, cost of flying, hotel, rental car, meals, match fees, and you can't chrono your ammo at least 3 months before you leave? And like I said before, you don't decide to go to a Major Area Match a week before, because, WELL, you can't get in anyway. TROLL THREAD! How can any shooter who has more than a dozen matches under their belt not know that? Maybe this is a new Division, Short Bus. Production Nationals. See who didn't shoot for score. There is no disclaimer on Freedom Munitions website about power factor. It says .40 S&W and .45 make major power factor and 9mm make minor. Google Freedom Munitions Power Factor and it will take you to the website. Match was in Illinois, guy livea in Florida, he flew there. Where is he going to chronic it, in the parking lot of the hotel or the match? He was not the only shooter that went sub minor, not sure who's ammo the other person was using, she us a popular well known shooter. and if they read the terms and condition which you have to check if you want to place an order they would have seen the disclaimer that it is not warranted for fitness for a particular purpose. Also how did he circumvent this little requirement by the manufacturer? Instructions for Illinois Ammunition Sales: FOID cards AND state photo ID submitted by e-mail - FOID@FreedomMunitions.com (IMPORTANT: You must enter your order number in the email subject line) It is your responsibility to follow up with Freedom Munitions to make sure we have received your information. These MUST be current, valid, & completely legible. Orders will be processed & retained until sufficient documents are submitted to and received by Freedom Munitions. Ammo can only be shipped to an address on one of those two documents. FFL Dealers must provide a copy of their FFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Gentlemen, please watch the attitudes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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