StraightSh00ter Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Sorry this is a little long. I'm pretty new at all this and just got my first gun. For some reason (aesthetics) I went with a 1911 over a CZ even though I love shooting one. I shot my first match this past weekend and had a blast, but got annoyed with the ergonomics of the 1911. The few things I already want to change are almost equivalent to the cost of a CZ. So I'm glued to the computer looking at guns again, and feel like I should just buy one and keep whatever I like better (maybe even both if that made sense). So I'm trying to decide between 75SA and 75 Shadow (I know about SP01 and TS but really like the 75s), and which class to shoot in. I feel like Limited is not for starting out but that's where the guns I like the best fit. Production seems like the place to start but I would rather not manually decock and start every stage DA. The reloading strategy is fun, but the reloads yesterday were getting annoying at times. For the time being my goal is to have fun shooting and to learn. I don't expect to be competitive any time soon, but I did find myself looking at and comparing my scores and times. And I am fine shooting minor power factor wherever I end up. The Shadow has flexibility of DA/SA, SA only, or converting from DA/SA to SA. That and the trigger work (and maybe barrel if it's better) are all that I really see being worth extra money, unless I'm missing something? The 75SA is cheaper, even with a trigger job, but would prohibit me from shooting Production and I don't know what else. I seem to be driving myself nuts over this, so thanks for reading and any thoughts/comments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric4069 Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 the Shadow DA/SA trigger is so nice most people including me can get used to the DA/SA transition just fine. IF you want to shoot a Shadow as though it were SA only just cock the hammer, put the safety on "safe" , then draw, sweep the safety "off" and shoot like you would if it were SA only. Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansedgli Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 If you like the limited gun shoot limited. You will progress the same. Curious to know what you need to change on the 1911 that costs that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I agree with dansedgli, if you want to shoot Limited, shoot Limited. The TS in .40 is the most competitive CZ for Limited, but if you're not interested in shooting one I suggest the 75 SA, it's a low risk way to get your feet wet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Shoot Limited. It's better for you to think about safety and having fun rather than more mag changes and if your gun is legal. Sent from the range Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzt Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Here is my take. Shoot your 1911 for now. Go to the clubs where you are wanting to shoot and see how the courses are laid out. Watch how people shoot them. That will go a long way in helping you to decide which gun and which division. I started out shooting a Sig 226 in 9mm and a 1911 in 45. I sold the Sig and shot everything with the 1911. I just love them. I used 8 and 10 round mags and became lightning fast at mag changes. The magwell helped. I had a ball. That being said, one mag change is a lot faster than four. The courses I initially shot were USPSA "like" and the target settings definitely favored accurate Limited and Open shooters. Most accurate sights and most rounds in the mag ruled. When I decided to join USPSA and shoot sanctioned matches, I asked the USPSA shooters at my club what they would recommend. Almost everyone said Limited. I was leaning toward Open, but I was told I would never be competitive in that class. So I bought a CZ TS and geared up for Limited. The clubs near me who run sanctioned shoots set them up with the SS shooters in mind, and they make certain an Open shooter cannot stand in one spot and hit all the targets. No shoots are plastered everywhere to make sure The Open shooters have to traverse the same ground as everyone else. That's why I suggest you shoot a couple of matches first and then decide what gun/division. Here is my take on the latter type courses. Since they are set up with SS in mind, there is no place where you would lose time with a mag change, as long as you were fast and accurate. Long shots and steel present a small problem in that you have to be more careful with your aim or you'll end up doing a standing reload. You want to avoid that. Production and Limited 10 shooters plan the run the same as the SS shooters, but have the advantage of two additional rounds, so they can be a little more aggressive on steel or distant targets. Same with SS Minor. The only advantage Limited gives you is fewer mag changes and some additional flexibility. I love Limited. It lets me shoot the kind og gun I want without all the Production rules and restrictions. Plus, I need fewer mags and pouches and I can use race holsters, etc. For me it is much more fun. Also, it is a big advantage in the unsanctioned shoots which often have 40 or more shots on a stage. I will tell you that some of the Production shooters and almost all of the SS Major shooters routinely run rings around the Limited shooters. Those guys are good. If I knew then what I know now, I'd be happy shooting any of the divisions except Limited 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayDee Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 The 75SA will no doubt be a fine pistol, but in USPSA you will be shooting Limited minor or L10 minor exclusively. That is totally fine, and you will have two SAO pistols. It may be and advantage to have a DA/SA CZ to participate in more divisions. Just my opinion: as a new shooter, it was helpful to me to start with a pistol that allowed me to compete in more than one division. My first dedicated action pistol was a shadow and I used it in IDPA ESP & SSP. I then found out that I really liked USPSA and used the same shadow to get classified in Production, Limited minor and L10 minor. After shooting this for a few years I eventually got a Limited gun in .40 with more capacity (CZ TS) to be competitive with some of the guys shooting 2011s. Later I got a 1911 since I also enjoy shooting single stack. I shoot 1911s fine, but they don't compare in comfort and ergonomics for me and my particular hands. I find it is easier to get my grip right on the draw when using a CZ compared to the 1911. In any case, whatever gets you started is a fine place to begin. Many CZ owners develop a "habit" of sorts and start collecting more CZs…... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightSh00ter Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 Thanks guys, I appreciate all the wisdom and thoughts. IF you want to shoot a Shadow as though it were SA only ... For the SA shots: does the trigger return (on its own) to the same position as it does for DA? Curious to know what you need to change on the 1911 that costs that much. It's a few small things related to ergonomics, more on this below. The CZ 75SA is only $550 so it doesn't take much to get somewhat close. It might not take quite that much but that's over the $1000 base price of the gun. I agree with dansedgli, if you want to shoot Limited, shoot Limited. The TS in .40 is the most competitive CZ for Limited, but if you're not interested in shooting one I suggest the 75 SA, it's a low risk way to get your feet wet. Getting the less expensive gun to try Limited was definitely one of my thoughts. I also had the idea of getting a .40 and fitting it with a 9mm Shadow bbl so it could be used for Major PF if I ever wanted to. This might be a little over my head though. But for the cost of a bbl and extractor, you basically get 2 guns. Shoot Limited. It's better for you to think about safety and having fun rather than more mag changes and if your gun is legal. This is really what sparked this thread. I enjoyed the mag change strategy but I almost got DQ'd because I can't do a mag change w/o shifting the gun in my hand. I ended up right at 180 after pivoting the gun in my hand. I also need my left thumb to work the slide stop so there's just a lot of fiddling. In general I was thinking about the gun too much and would prefer not to have that distraction. The Sig 1911 is an awesome gun - it reliably and accurately did everything I asked it to do. My only complaint is the fit. I started out shooting a Sig 226 in 9mm and a 1911 in 45. I sold the Sig and shot everything with the 1911. ... Here is my take on the latter type courses. Since they are set up with SS in mind, there is no place where you would lose time with a mag change, as long as you were fast and accurate. ... The only advantage Limited gives you is fewer mag changes and some additional flexibility. ... I will tell you that some of the Production shooters and almost all of the SS Major shooters routinely run rings around the Limited shooters. Those guys are good. What are mag changes like for you with the 1911? It is hard for me to be 'fast and accurate' since I have to pivot the gun in my hand. The match I shot yesterday is as you described - geared for SS/Production shooter. The only difference between classes (from what I could tell) was the number of mag changes; shooting positions were about the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Don't get any CZ but a TS in 40, the 75 series only hold 15 in 140mm mags where the TS holds 21. A 9mm 75SA will be scored minor, but it will hold 23 in a 140mm, if you're getting overwhelmed with too much going on that should help emensely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightSh00ter Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 Well I can't believe how much my perception has changed. I found a 75B to shoot at another range - I used to think they were big and heavy! Geez. It was like a little toy today. The ergos are still awesome, but don't think I would be happy at all with a double action trigger. I think that makes things a little easier. I checked out some other Sig 1911s and am amazed at what such small differences can do to the feel of a gun. Just a very slight difference in grip safety shape and thumb safety shape, and possibly a very small difference in grips, and it feels like a totally different gun. My grip safety has a really sharp curve and actually comes back down into the web of the hand a little, their other 'non traditional' 1911s have a bigger radius and more generous area under the beaver tail. But they still don't compare to the way the CZ fits the hand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzt Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 SS, With my Sig Tacops 1911 I have to shift my grip slightly to operate the mag release. I'm used to it, and keep the gun pointed down range. I've done it so many times it is automatic. It takes about a second. Your left thumb should operate the slide stop. I tried one of the extended slide stop levers (Wilson), because I thought it would speed things up. If it is far enough back to operate without shifting your grip, it's far enough back to hit by accident and the slide won't lock back. Every time you do that it costs you seconds. I was initially advised that shooting Limited with anything less than 18 rounds in the mag would be an exercise in frustration. Tht is true. So if you go with 40, make sure your mags can handle at least that. I have some mags that hold 21 and some that hold 20. I down load them all by one round so they are easier to seat on the fly. I start with 20 +1 and have never had to reload from slide lock. One time I started with 21 +1. I initially thought the TS grip to be a tad bulky. I switched to the thin Aluminum grips and that reduced the width by .100". I can now draw the TS, shoot it and drop the mag without ever shifting my grip. BTW, you an buy thin 1911 grips with a cutout for your thumb. Harrison Custom sell a dandy pair. You can also buy extended mag releases or one will a paddle on the end. Those two alterations will allow you to drop the mag without shifting grip no matter how small your hands are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 the Shadow DA/SA trigger is so nice most people including me can get used to the DA/SA transition just fine. IF you want to shoot a Shadow as though it were SA only just cock the hammer, put the safety on "safe" , then draw, sweep the safety "off" and shoot like you would if it were SA only. Eric Only in Limited .... you must start 'hammer down' in Production .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 DA is not an issue. In a 10 stage match you might have 2-3 unloaded starts, so that is a total of 7-8 DA shots in a match with about 280 shots. That is less than 3% of the shots in a match. Carry Optics is something you might want to look at too. Get a CZ P-09, slap a Red Dot on it and you're ready to go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimitri Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Joe M, I also started shooting with a CZ SP-01 Shadow, in production division, but since I also do not like to manualy lower the hammer (left hand not in the best conditon) I moved on to Standard division in IPSC. 18 rounds in each mag (as oposed to 15 in production) and always single action. The decocking action was the main reason that I did not go with the production division, as the mag change is easily mastered -just one or two afternoon and all is OK. The deocking on the other hand, is something that worried me, as I have lost some strength on my left hand fingers and I was worried that the hammer might slip. I find it more fun this way, as most stages do not require a mag change (even though I might ) and I do not have to deal with the DA first shot (which most of the times was all over the place) Power factor was a liitle of a worrying point when I started competing in February, but after 5 months and 10 or so matches, I have improved and get 80-85% of my shots in the A zone (the next thing is to speed up while keeping the same A zone percentage) And one final thing. If you buy the Shadow, you can alternate between Production and Standard (I believe this is Limited in USPSA), just for the fun of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightSh00ter Posted July 29, 2015 Author Share Posted July 29, 2015 Dropping the hammer before a stage is one thing, but what I don't like about DA is the long reset and just the overall feel of the trigger. I shot a CZ 75 at the range yesterday didn't like the feel of the DA at all. I got used to my 1911 SA I guess. I'm pretty sure the CZ I shot in the past was SAO - it totally had the 'glass rod' trigger, and it was a range gun! I saw that CZCustom has the Short Reset Trigger - that could be the ticket for a DA gun. At first I was hesitant about the SRTS since it is restricted in some instances outside USPSA, but I guess could drop in SA trigger parts and change it if necessary. I think a gun that could be used in different divisions is a really good idea, and if it can be modified or adjusted to better suit that division its even better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightSh00ter Posted July 30, 2015 Author Share Posted July 30, 2015 I just saw a few videos on these guns -the Shadow is a no-brainer, and I definitely underestimated the DA/SA trigger action. Are all Shadows pre-worked/adjusted/polished? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brisix Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) I just saw a few videos on these guns -the Shadow is a no-brainer, and I definitely underestimated the DA/SA trigger action. Are all Shadows pre-worked/adjusted/polished? No. The Shadows do not have the firing pin block, come with a better sight then the stock SP-01 and has the extended mag release. For around a $1100 you can get a fully tuned SP-01 from Cajun Gunworks that will be very close to the a fully tuned Shadow, ~$1450 with similar upgrades as the $1100 SP-01. The only difference in trigger will be the Shadow will have ~1mm better reset, this is due to the firing pin block in the SP-01. Everything else with the trigger will be the same. There is a SP-01 Tactical that has a decocker that allows you to start at half cocked vs fully decocked. Reduces DA by about 1# with the 13# hammer spring. You sacrifice nothing in trigger quality with the decocker version as long as you use the CGW parts or have David do the work for you. I was never afraid of manually decocking the hammer but the decocker is very very convenient. For me I like the CGW SP-01 rear sight better then anything that is available for the Shadow. The SP-01 and Shadow have different rear dovetails so the CGW rear sight cannot be put on the Shadow. The reason I like the CGW rear sight is becasue it has a deeper cut on the notch that allows more light around the front sight that allows for quicker acquisition. Edited July 30, 2015 by brisix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butterpuc Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I'm not going to discourage your from getting a CZ in the least bit. I'm considering one too. I have small hands and short fingers, and love to shoot SS. I had to pivot the 1911 a lot for mag changes. It concerned me also, and took a long time. I purchased the Mitchell Customs Bulletworks right side mag release. Now I release the magazine with my trigger finger and DO NOT have to adjust my grip AT ALL. Just something for you to think about. It does cost ~$150+. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightSh00ter Posted July 30, 2015 Author Share Posted July 30, 2015 Oh, ok. Thanks. I am realizing how much I really don't know about all this. I saw a video of an 'unboxing' of the 75 SA, and then a 75 Shadow Custom by the same guy. The Shadow was all polished and fit up and stuff inside. But I probably don't need that - I would just be happy if it came out of the box sighted in, even if it's an add-on. I think the DA/SA is the right way to go. So what I am after is the SP01/Shadow slide, the 75 frame, and that feels as close as possible to an SAO trigger when in SA mode. A nice, crisp, and short trigger pull is what I'm after but not necessarily super light given my limited experience. I guess the right thing to do is call CZ Custom and have a talk with them. Hopefully I can get what I mentioned above in the $850 range. Since I'm looking at the more expensive gun it would be best to wait until next paycheck, but I have to send my 1911 in for service so we'll see how that works out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightSh00ter Posted July 30, 2015 Author Share Posted July 30, 2015 Thanks Butterpuc. I guess I got bit by the bug and am thinking about a second gun. It would be fun to try different divisions and good to have a backup. I've been working on my grip with the 1911 and figuring out what I want to do to make it right (basically down to just a magwell, grips, and something to the mag release). But I can't get CZ out of my head - since January when I first shot one. I don't think I'll be able to drop it until I've owned one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butterpuc Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 You definitely have the bug to buy a CZ, and that is a good enough reason. Get one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimitri Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Joe M, I was trying to reply yesterday, but my PC was acting up and I could not post. As already said, the "problem" with the Shadow is the "long" travel in DA, which you can get used to (with practice). You can reduce this if you can get your hands on a pre-ban CZ 75 disconnector, that moves the trigger back by about 2-3mm (if I remember correctly). This way the gun is legal for IPSC Production Division. If you get the CZCustom STR system I think you will be legit for USPSA but not for IPSC. The actual reset (in SA) is very short and I would say similar (if not shorter) to the 1911, so no worries there. Now if you really don't like a SA/DA system, then you can go for the CZ TS, which is SA only and shoots even better than the Shadow (I tried one and you really have to work hard to mess up a shot). However with this gun you cannot shoot Production Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 You're mistaken Dimitri, the pre B disconnector shortens the travel of the SA, the only mod I'm aware of to shorten the length of the DA stroke is the CGW "Reach Reduction Kit" (http://cajungunworks.com/miscellaneous_items.html) which is not Production legal in USPSA or IPSC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightSh00ter Posted July 30, 2015 Author Share Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) Thanks, I was trying to figure out if the stock Shadow had a short SA reset upgrade or not. It sounds like the pre-B disco is what I'd want with that gun. I don't expect DA pull to be super short, I just want the SA pull to be short like an SA only. My 1911 is so short I can't really release the trigger w/o a reset. Maybe once out of 10 tries. It's nice So maybe the 75 Shadow DA/SA, the pre-B disco, and an adjustable rear sight will be a good starting point. I like fixed sights but I don't want to have to deal with with finding a 'smith or making a bunch of trips to the range. I'm new out here so I'm not in a club yet and public range time is expensive. Maybe that's something I can work with CZC on. Edited July 30, 2015 by StraightSh00ter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 It sounds like the pre-B disco is what I'd want with that gun. I don't expect DA pull to be super short, I just want the SA pull to be short like an SA only. You're on the right track But why the 75 Shadow and not the SP01 Shadow? I recommend the SP01 Shadow Target (add the Accu bushing if the extra $350 is not a big deal). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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