kcobean Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) An interesting question came up recently about clubs that include classifier stages in their matches and then don't ever submit those scores to USPSA for classification purposes. Anyone know what the obligations of affiliation are? Are clubs required to submit classifier reports if they include classifier stages, and are they still obligated to hold one special classifier match per year? Edited June 17, 2015 by kcobean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 If they are charging shooters for it then they better submit them. i.e. regular match fees are 20 bucks and they submit classifier, that costs them 1.50 per shooter to USPSA. That's over and above the required $1.50 per shooter per match if affiliated. If they don't submit then they should in theory only charge $18.50 to shoot or they are keeping shooter's money in my opinion. From the club affiliation application: CLUB AFFILIATIONS RUN JANUARY 1 THROUGH DECEMBER 31 EACH YEAR. CLUBS THAT HAVE NOT REAFFILIATED BY MARCH 15 WILL BE DROPPED.Please Read and Agree before continuing. We have read the bylaws, rules and regulations of USPSA/IPSC and agree to abide by them. As part of this reaffiliation application we further agree: • To hold Practical Shooting contests under USPSA/IPSC rules and regulations set forth in the USPSA bylaws, and to agree that all USPSA matches shall be open to any person eligible for USPSA membership, or any member of another IPSC region, subject only to 6.4.4 thru 6.4.5. • To hold a minimum of eight such matches, three of which will contain classifier courses, • To report the results of all USPSA matches held by our club within thirty days, and to follow USPSA policy in reporting activities. • To at all times abide by USPSA policies and procedures, including those that relate to USPSA licensed or produced property, • To return to USPSA all USPSA licensed or produced manuals, property, software, and merchandise upon demand from USPSA or upon failure to reaffiliate with USPSA. • To reserve the use of USPSA’s images and intellectual property for USPSA competitions and that activity fees shall be paid for all competitors at any match employing such images or property, or that competitors might reasonably assume to be a USPSA event. • The club understands that failure to follow rules/procedures will result in revocation of USPSA/IPSC affiliation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 As for the all classifier match, From the classification booklet: Running A Special Classifier Twice a year, a club may run a Level I Special match. I think changes were made to the numbers but a club is not REQUIRED to run an all classifier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstagn Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 It seems some clubs don't want to pay the fee or take the time to send in the report or just forget. All you can do is complain and/or not shoot there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordfan485 Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 You would think they would be required to but I shot two matches(at 2 different clubs) last month that didn't submit anything to USPSA to be included in this month's update. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 That is an extreme foul and in point of fact, dishonest. When shooters show up to a match where there are classifier stages the defacto expectation is that those scores are submitted, otherwise why have a classifier stage? Classifiers were never meant to be 'optional' ..... " we'll set one up at our match & if you don't like your score just tell us & we won't bother to submit it ...." Absolutely contact the MD about this. He may have just not gotten around to it yet ..... HOWEVER, if you get any other response than he is going to do it I would politely inform him that you don't plan to be a part of that anymore & also that you will be reporting his behavior to National & have them deal with it ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 You would think they would be required to but I shot two matches(at 2 different clubs) last month that didn't submit anything to USPSA to be included in this month's update. Bring this up to your Section Coordinator and Area Director Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 There is a difference between scores not being submitted in time for a monthly update and not submitting them at all. If they are late, sorry, you'll see them next month. If they are not being submitted at ALL, then there are problems that need to be addressed with SC or HQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 If a club has a match and uploads the classifier file, USPSA records that action and lists that club with a link to pay the fee. (You have to be Club Contact or Authorized Uploader to see) I see some clubs having classifier fees not paid as far back as Oct of 2014. No excuse for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 yeah, someone is dropping the ball .... I upload scores and pay the match pay at the same time for my Steel challenge matches since I don't have another person doing scoring but there really is no excuse for not paying once the scores are up loaded ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 When I did scores, I would upload them then wait a few days in case someone had a question or problem with the scores. There was one month where the match was close to the cutoff date and I forgot to get payment in but it happened the next month so all was good. Match director needs to be directly questioned and if his answer is less than sufficient, take it up the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 You would think they would be required to but I shot two matches(at 2 different clubs) last month that didn't submit anything to USPSA to be included in this month's update. So quick question -- is it possible that they're just running late? I spent a bit of time running a match on the second Sunday of a given month -- and possibly once or twice was able to get classifiers in on time for that month; usually they were processed for the following month. Sometimes life gets in the way for the volunteers who run a club match. We all wish it didn't ever happen, but I'm not sure we can expect perfection from the crew either. Now, if its a regular occurrence at a club, then that's a problem.... Start by contacting the MD. Can't get anywhere, reach out to the Section Coordinator next, followed by the AD, if necessary.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 That is an extreme foul and in point of fact, dishonest. When shooters show up to a match where there are classifier stages the defacto expectation is that those scores are submitted, otherwise why have a classifier stage? Classifiers were never meant to be 'optional' ..... " we'll set one up at our match & if you don't like your score just tell us & we won't bother to submit it ...." Absolutely contact the MD about this. He may have just not gotten around to it yet ..... HOWEVER, if you get any other response than he is going to do it I would politely inform him that you don't plan to be a part of that anymore & also that you will be reporting his behavior to National & have them deal with it ..... The other thing I'll bring up -- once in a while you discover during a match that a classifier wasn't set correctly. In that case all you can do is not send it in to USPSA, and make arrangements to make it up to the competitors...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordfan485 Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 (edited) You would think they would be required to but I shot two matches(at 2 different clubs) last month that didn't submit anything to USPSA to be included in this month's update. So quick question -- is it possible that they're just running late? I spent a bit of time running a match on the second Sunday of a given month -- and possibly once or twice was able to get classifiers in on time for that month; usually they were processed for the following month. Sometimes life gets in the way for the volunteers who run a club match. We all wish it didn't ever happen, but I'm not sure we can expect perfection from the crew either. Now, if its a regular occurrence at a club, then that's a problem.... Start by contacting the MD. Can't get anywhere, reach out to the Section Coordinator next, followed by the AD, if necessary.... Probably just running late would be my guess. Not sure if that is normal SOP for these two clubs as it was my first time shooting at both. They were shot on the 23rd and 31st of May. The one on the 23rd was scored using practiscore. It shouldn't take 18 days to upload scores for that one, but I guess it does. The match on the 31st all scored on paper so they probably still mail scores. I'll bring it up with the MD's if I don't see them on the July update. Wish more clubs would be like ECPS(NC-30). They had the full match results uploaded to the USPSA website the day after the match. Edited June 18, 2015 by Fordfan485 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 Some clubs don't send in the classifier results unless you prod them to do it. I shot at a club which didn't post a score for three months, until I e-mailed the MD and asked whether they had submitted the classifiers to HQ. They appeared on the next update. I'd gotten word from a buddy that they just didn't bother, unless someone asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 Some clubs don't send in the classifier results unless you prod them to do it. I shot at a club which didn't post a score for three months, until I e-mailed the MD and asked whether they had submitted the classifiers to HQ. They appeared on the next update. I'd gotten word from a buddy that they just didn't bother, unless someone asked. That's a shame. One shouldn't volunteer to run a match if they are not willing to do it right from start to finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Ehh, I don't know if I'd go that far. I get the impression most of the people (not just the leadership) at this club just don't care what their classification is, so they're not in the habit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 When I did scores, I would upload them then wait a few days in case someone had a question or problem with the scores. There was one month where the match was close to the cutoff date and I forgot to get payment in but it happened the next month so all was good. Match director needs to be directly questioned and if his answer is less than sufficient, take it up the line. What is the cutoff date? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 (edited) Scores AND PAYMENT have to be submitted by the 10th in order to reflect in the 15th update Clubs are required to host at least 8 events per year and 3 with classifiers in them. Edited June 19, 2015 by JakeMartens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nghthwk1911 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Jake, Other then not shooting a club, what other official recourse do shooters have for a club that will not send in scores, or pay for the activities? Understand that we don't want to "loose" a club, but if they are not sending in scores, and shooters stop coming it is the same thing as USPSA just killing the affiliations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Jake, Other then not shooting a club, what other official recourse do shooters have for a club that will not send in scores, or pay for the activities? Understand that we don't want to "loose" a club, but if they are not sending in scores, and shooters stop coming it is the same thing as USPSA just killing the affiliations. Send me the information and cc Val so we can review it and contact the club jake@uspsa.org val@uspsa.org I am not for clubs loosing their affiliation, however per the by laws there is a standard that clubs need to be held to. it is also the same for clubs that are running matches under "uspsa" rules, calling them "uspsa" matches or "steel challenge" that are not affiliated, I would like to have their contact information as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Jake, Other then not shooting a club, what other official recourse do shooters have for a club that will not send in scores, or pay for the activities? Understand that we don't want to "loose" a club, but if they are not sending in scores, and shooters stop coming it is the same thing as USPSA just killing the affiliations. Send me the information and cc Val so we can review it and contact the club jake@uspsa.org val@uspsa.org I am not for clubs loosing their affiliation, however per the by laws there is a standard that clubs need to be held to. it is also the same for clubs that are running matches under "uspsa" rules, calling them "uspsa" matches or "steel challenge" that are not affiliated, I would like to have their contact information as well. Perhaps you should let your SC and AD in on it as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Jake, Other then not shooting a club, what other official recourse do shooters have for a club that will not send in scores, or pay for the activities? Understand that we don't want to "loose" a club, but if they are not sending in scores, and shooters stop coming it is the same thing as USPSA just killing the affiliations. Send me the information and cc Val so we can review it and contact the club jake@uspsa.org val@uspsa.org I am not for clubs loosing their affiliation, however per the by laws there is a standard that clubs need to be held to. it is also the same for clubs that are running matches under "uspsa" rules, calling them "uspsa" matches or "steel challenge" that are not affiliated, I would like to have their contact information as well. Perhaps you should let your SC and AD in on it as well? Yes they should be involved as well. However Val has access to the information as far as what has been submitted, what hasn't, what needs to be paid etc Actually that is what she is in charge of, and I am her support, the person on the ground so to speak to help resolve any issues that clubs maybe running in to and to help support the SC's and AD's in matters just like this. There have been issues like this where the resolution was as simple as a new MD was put in place, no one ever notified HQ and that person doesn't have access to upload scores and submit payment. They have just been posting results to practiscore and was unaware of submitting the results and payment to USPSA was needed. As USPSA members and regular competitors you should be asking your MD's to post your results to the USPSA webpage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euxx Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 There have been issues like this where the resolution was as simple as a new MD was put in place, no one ever notified HQ and that person doesn't have access to upload scores and submit payment. They have just been posting results to practiscore and was unaware of submitting the results and payment to USPSA was needed. As USPSA members and regular competitors you should be asking your MD's to post your results to the USPSA webpage. Jake, currently it is much much easier to post results to PractiScore. As an uspsa club and services coordinator, do you plan to make posting results to uspsa as easy as that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 There have been issues like this where the resolution was as simple as a new MD was put in place, no one ever notified HQ and that person doesn't have access to upload scores and submit payment. They have just been posting results to practiscore and was unaware of submitting the results and payment to USPSA was needed. As USPSA members and regular competitors you should be asking your MD's to post your results to the USPSA webpage. Jake, currently it is much much easier to post results to PractiScore. As an uspsa club and services coordinator, do you plan to make posting results to uspsa as easy as that? I am not the tech guy, but this is something that I have brought up many times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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