RO manipulating target from back side to make hit/miss call

[CHA-LEE]

I had this question asked of me during the last club match. The shooter who asked me was on another squad and I didn't see the event happen myself. So this is all second hand information on my part. But this is what was described to me. Paper target that required 2 hits has one "hole" in it but its oblong in size. Shooter believes its two very close hits on top of one another, but not a double since the hole is oblong, and calls for an overlay. The RO pushes in the back of the target to flatten out the hit/hole to use the overlay to make the call. The shooter disagrees with this manipulation of the target from the back side to use the overlay in confirming if its a single hit or two different hits.

I looked in the rule book but couldn't find anywhere that defines what an RO can or can't do from a target manipulation perspective. There are rules defining what competitors can do with regards to touching targets, but not RO's. Personally, I would never touch the back of a target to "Flatten out" the hit to make a call because doing so can change the actual size of the hole or angle of the hole which would make finding two distinct grease ring radius's very difficult or subjective. The only time I have "Manipulated" a target hit is to pull back a piece of tape to see the perf if the hit location is totally covered with tape. But even then, the hit is confirmed and I am simply trying to determine the value of the hit.

The RO in question just attended an RO class and claimed that the NROI instructor said "He could touch the target any way they want to determine the hit/score".

My question is this. What is the official NROI stance on manipulating the actual hole/hit in this scenario, such as pushing the hole back in from the back side of the target?

[PKT1106]

You have to score what is there, not what you make there. RO should not have done anything to it to score it. If it was a target where the shooter was at an angle, the RO can look for that angle, but I would not touch it except to put an overlay on it.

[2MoreChains]

From what I've seen, this mostly occurs when the targets have been shot a lot and there are layers upon layers of tape covering a gaping hole in the target. Changing targets regularly (i.e. every 3 squads) may seem like a waste of cardboard but at all the majors I've worked (Nats and Area) that required frequent change out I don't ever recall having to touch the back of the target to determine the hits.

At locals where we may have 50-60 shooters and only one set of targets (meaning the by the last squad there could be 100-120 holes in the target) I've had to touch the back of the hole to determine if it is one hit or two because the tape from the previous patched holes got all jacked up when at least one bullet went thru it. Would be that a bullet cuts a clean hole in multiple layers of tape like it does cardboard, but it doesn't always. I want to give the shooter the hits he earned, but sometimes the only way I can determine anything (other than an oblong jagged hole) in that mess of tape on tape is to touch the back and re-align the multiple layers of tape.

Obviously I'm not going to shove my fist thru the hole when re-aligning the tape... but do so rather gently and in full view of the shooter or delegate.

[RJH]

An RO can touch the target, granted they shouldn't poke there fingers through it. You are correct that the shooter cannot touch the target. And I basically agree with everything 2MCs said. I am an RO and was told pretty much the same thing at my class. Many people think no one is allowed to touch the target, and that is where the most issues come up, in my experience .

[CHA-LEE]

I agree that RO's can "touch" the targets while trying to determine a score. But physically manipulating the hole of a hit? That seems pretty sketchy to me.

[CHA-LEE]

I have been ROing for a long time now, both in local and major matches. I have seen some pretty strange looking holes in targets. But I have never needed to manipulate the hole its self to make a call. I have had to remove a target from the lath to get a better view of the hit(s) or get better lighting, but that is it. If you know the trajectory of the round entering the target and actually know how to use multiple overlays together to determine two distinct radius's there shouldn't be any need to manipulate the hole its self to make the call.

[ChuckS]

How can you determine if the back of the target was not already deformed from a prior shooter? We tend to only patch the front

[CHA-LEE]

I also agree that if a match allows the targets to get totally beat to shit with tape over tape over tape patching, it becomes increasingly difficult to make quick and accurate calls. Tape without any cardboard behind it does leave funky size or shaped holes some times.

This was a local club match with almost 70 shooters with very few targets getting replaced mid match due to being beat up too much. To my knowledge the only targets that got replaced proactively were the head shot targets and that is because I was the one who replaced them because they were too beat up to make quick and accurate scoring calls. All of the the other full or partial targets were not replaced mid match.

[RenoShooter]

At the level one level we seem to allow some flexibility. However, beyond that, we as RO's cannot manipulate or otherwise change the dynamics of the hole in question. This includes folding it in from the back. Granted that this is typically done to score as accurately as possible, but what should happen in a dispute is that the target is removed, intact, and taken for the match director and his/her staff to make the official ruling.

[MarkCO]

If the RO had any question, he should have taken it to the RM of the match for assistance. Once he has manipulated the target, he removes the ability for the RM to see what was originally there. Chance for a little education there. Look at 9.6.7 as well.

Edited June 9, 2015 by MarkCO

[Gary Stevens]

When I get a call as RM I score the target as is. Now if I still can't find another hit I ask the shooters permission to reform the target and look again. If they say no then it is called a mike. If they say yes then I'll try again.

Mark is right, don't mess with the target unless you are the end of the scoring line.

[motosapiens]

seems to me that the grease ring(s) are probably more important than how the cardboard was bent, and if flattenting out the bent pieces helps to see the grease ring(s), then I don't really see a huge problem with it. I certainly don't see how it's any different than pulling off pieces of tape to see the perf. In fact, pulling off tape might be worse (but I've done it). At that point you are *removing* the grease ring from its previous relationship with the perf, so there may now be confusion as to just what hole you're looking at on a shot-up target.

but perhaps I am misunderstanding the level of 'manipulation' that cha-lee is talking about. he's usually a pretty smart guy.

Edited June 9, 2015 by motosapiens

[whitedog]

I often touch the target lightly as I score. As kind of a tactile help in counting hits or looking at a perf or possible double. It's almost 3-4 inches below the hit. Never within an inch of the hit.

I was told by a CRO that this is not allowed. It was at a level 2 match.

Is this allowed by an RO? And if not( not being a jerk ) could you give me the rule. I've looked and can find nothing.

[MarkCO]

Is this allowed by an RO? And if not( not being a jerk ) could you give me the rule. I've looked and can find nothing.

From the 2014 Rulebook

9.6.7 During a scoring challenge, the subject target(s) must not be patched, taped or otherwise interfered with until the matter has been settled. The Range Officer may remove a disputed paper target from the course of fire for further examination to prevent any delay in the match. Both the competitor and the Range Officer must sign the target and clearly indicate which hit(s) is (are) subject to challenge.

I am on the same page with Gary if I am the RM. If I am working as an RO, I pull the target and get it to the RM and go back to working my stage.

[motosapiens]

Is this allowed by an RO? And if not( not being a jerk ) could you give me the rule. I've looked and can find nothing.

From the 2014 Rulebook

9.6.7 During a scoring challenge, the subject target(s) must not be patched, taped or otherwise interfered with until the matter has been settled. The Range Officer may remove a disputed paper target from the course of fire for further examination to prevent any delay in the match. Both the competitor and the Range Officer must sign the target and clearly indicate which hit(s) is (are) subject to challenge.

I am on the same page with Gary if I am the RM. If I am working as an RO, I pull the target and get it to the RM and go back to working my stage.

Are you saying that you consider 'touching' to fall under 'patched, taped or otherwise interfered with' ?

If I can't make the call, I call the CRO or RM. Who wouldn't? I don't think that means I can't touch the target tho. Kinda impossible to use an overlay (for example) without touching the target.

[MarkCO]

I am not saying touching is "interfering". However, pressing the hole from either side, moving tape, etc., yes I would consider interfering and like Gary said, unless you are the end of the line on a challenge, do not do it. If an RO puts an overlay on the target and a piece of tape dislodges, I expect that to be told to the RM as well. Like Gary, as a RM, I would have a conversation with the RO and shooter (if possible) to determine distance, angle of the shot(s) in question and any other information that might have bearing on scoring the specific target in question. FTR, it matters not if the shooter is Max Michel (who did argue for a double on a call I made at Nationals and lost) or 10 year old shooting their first match ever.

Remember, there had to be evidence of 2 hits from the shooter to score 2 hits.

Edited June 9, 2015 by MarkCO

[Gary Stevens]

Using an overlay requires touching the target, but not manipulating the bullet hole.

[motosapiens]

I am not saying touching is "interfering". However, pressing the hole from either side, moving tape, etc., yes I would consider interfering and like Gary said, unless you are the end of the line on a challenge, do not do it.

That makes sense. So it's something I'd be comfortable doing at a club match, but at a major I'd make the call without manipulating the target and/or call the RM. (fwiw, our club is not in the habit of disputing scoring calls beyond the squad RO(s). Other people at other clubs may have stricter policies.

Thanks to you and gary for your erudite input, and to cha-lee for bringing up the question in the first place.

Edited June 9, 2015 by motosapiens

[shakman]

My 2 cents....take it as such....

If it's a local match and NOT a qualifier stage, I always lean in-favor of the shooter. It's just not worth fighting over at any level. In this case, an obviously non-round hole I would most likely score as a double-hit. That's just me though.

Consider yourselves 2 cents richer......or not.

[MarkCO]

That is 2 cents poorer for everyone.

The rulebook is the rulebook and if you do not follow it, you are not shooting USPSA. An official, at any level has no right to ignore the rules and do anything other than fairly administer the rules of the game. You diminish the sports integrity and your own when you do what you want and ignore the rules. It can be especially costly for competitors who end up at a major match and all of a sudden end up on the short end of the stick. Besides, the OP did not indicate there was a fight.

[motosapiens]

My 2 cents....take it as such....

If it's a local match and NOT a qualifier stage, I always lean in-favor of the shooter. It's just not worth fighting over at any level. In this case, an obviously non-round hole I would most likely score as a double-hit. That's just me though.

I don't like that approach myself, and here's why: When shooters go to a major match, they shouldn't be surprised or caught out by something unexpected. I try to enforce the same rules the same way whether it's scoring rules or safety rules.

If a shooter is used to (for example) not getting credit for a perf hit on the no-shoot because the grease ring doesn't quite touch the perf (even tho a properly applied overlay does), he's not going to be happy when the rule is properly enforced at his area match.

Similarly, if shooters aren't getting dq'd for breaking the 180 'only a little', then they're not going to develop sufficient awareness, and they're going to be sad when they get dq'd at nationals.

I picked up one of those almost perf no-shoots on saturday. it made me sad, but it was probably the right call.

[lcs]

I had this question asked of me during the last club match. The shooter who asked me was on another squad and I didn't see the event happen myself. So this is all second hand information on my part. But this is what was described to me. Paper target that required 2 hits has one "hole" in it but its oblong in size. Shooter believes its two very close hits on top of one another, but not a double since the hole is oblong, and calls for an overlay. The RO pushes in the back of the target to flatten out the hit/hole to use the overlay to make the call. The shooter disagrees with this manipulation of the target from the back side to use the overlay in confirming if its a single hit or two different hits.

I looked in the rule book but couldn't find anywhere that defines what an RO can or can't do from a target manipulation perspective. There are rules defining what competitors can do with regards to touching targets, but not RO's. Personally, I would never touch the back of a target to "Flatten out" the hit to make a call because doing so can change the actual size of the hole or angle of the hole which would make finding two distinct grease ring radius's very difficult or subjective. The only time I have "Manipulated" a target hit is to pull back a piece of tape to see the perf if the hit location is totally covered with tape. But even then, the hit is confirmed and I am simply trying to determine the value of the hit.

The RO in question just attended an RO class and claimed that the NROI instructor said "He could touch the target any way they want to determine the hit/score".

My question is this. What is the official NROI stance on manipulating the actual hole/hit in this scenario, such as pushing the hole back in from the back side of the target?

I higly doubt the Instructor said "...anyway you want" unless he was referring to placement of the overlay/s. The RO student didn't listen correctly or the Instructor's comments were taken out of context.

Worked a lot of matches to include NATS. Never saw a CRO or RM manipulate the back of a target.

I have seen this action by new ROs at local matches where targets are shot to shit. Most of time you have a big hole with the pasters pushed in and the shooter wants two hits based on the size of the hole. If I cannot determine the correct number of hits...It is called a RE-SHOOT. Range equipment failure would come to mind.

[Gary Stevens]

You get paid (cough cough) to make a call. Make it and move on. The shooter has recourse if they don't agree.

If I think a target is beyond proper usage it gets replaced. Level 1 thru 3 makes no difference.

[RenoShooter]

At the local club level this comes down to how far the shooter wants to take it. The rules are the rules, but in the spirit of time RO's will sometimes still push the target in from the back. If he/she thinks there's two holes there, then great! The flip side is back on the shooter who, if was penalized a miss, would be allowed a reshoot if they pushed the issue. Not really something I would do at the local match, but if I had a level two or three match, paid money, traveled, etc and this same thing happened I would be much more likely to push the issue and get a reshoot. I believe most folks would who knew the rules. This is why it's nice at area matches that they swap out targets after so many squads.

[StealthyBlagga]

I'm in the "no pushing" camp - just a bad practice all around IMHO. As others said, if the target is that bad, change the target and reshoot.

The only time I do any manipulation is when the perforation is obscured by patches, and the bullet hole is very close to the perforation... I may peel away patches WELL AWAY FROM THE HOLE so that I can interpolate using my overlay to get an accurate position on the perforation. This does not in any way change the bullet hole, and better enables me to make the right call.

As for "giving the shooter the benefit of the doubt" - not just NO, but HELL NO. The shooter gets the score they earned... to do anything else screws all the other shooters in the match.

Edited June 9, 2015 by StealthyBlagga