Easier? Production vs Single Stack

[ES13Raven]

Before you vote, please read ALL the criteria:

Based on equipment only (not your competition): All typical Production guns (Glock, M&P, CZ, XD etc.), All typical 1911 SS guns (STI, Springfield etc.) and criteria below, which is the easier Division to score well in the Overall?

• Easier Scoring: I give the edge to
• Easier Trigger: I give the edge to
• Easier Reloads: I give the edge to
• Easier Accuracy: I give the edge to
• Easier Recoil: I give the Edge to
• Allowed Modifications: I give the edge to
• Overall: I give the edge to

Here is mine:

• Easier Scoring: I give the edge to SS for Major PF points, equal if shooting Minor PF
• Easier Trigger: I give the edge to SS (short, light single-action only)
• Easier Reloads: I give the edge to Production for double-stack mags
• Easier Accuracy: I give the edge to SS (short, light triggers help accuracy. 1911s lock up tighter than plastic guns)
• Easier Recoil: I give the Edge to Production if SS is shooting Major PF, equal if SS is shooting Minor PF
• Modifications: I give the edge to SS (mag-wells are nice)
• Overall: I give the edge to SS
• Production is the more difficult Division to shoot, based on equipment only

Edited June 3, 2015 by ES13Raven

[motosapiens]

don't the magwells make the reloads easier?

I shoot alot of both production and SS, and I end up pretty much the exact same in the overall results regardless of which division.

I also find that my garden variety cz 75b is just as accurate as my 1911's.

Trigger is a wash for me, but I practice the double action.

Scoring is a wash for me. sometimes major is an advantage, often the extra 2 bullets are more of an advantage than major scoring.

Overall it's a wash for me except that a really nice production gun costs significantly more than a really nice singlestack gun.

Both divisions are the same amount of difficulty and can/should compete on equal footing.

[KSwift]

•Easier Scoring: SS

•Easier Trigger: SS

•Easier Reloads: SS (I can hit a 1911 with a magwell easier than a vanilla striker frame without one)

•Easier Accuracy: SS

•Easier Recoil: SS (Frame weight/flex is better on 1911 vs poly strikers)

•Modifications: SS

•Overall: SS uncontested

Edited June 1, 2015 by KSwift

[Trent1k1]

6 steel and a maxtrap.....WE had that exact stage last weekend.

Revolver minor guys couldn't afford miss even once.

Single stack dudes were living high on the hog with the barney round.

Production guys felt like Open with 3 extra rounds.

Open guys shot 15 times and missed 7 of them, but boy were we yanking the trigger fast.

[KSwift]

Both divisions are the same amount of difficulty and can/should compete on equal footing.

What? Well they definitely aren't and don't.

[2MoreChains]

Both divisions are the same amount of difficulty and can/should compete on equal footing.

What? Well they definitely aren't and don't.

Meaning what, you think one is easier than the other and don't look at the overall scores at a local match to see how you did against the other lo-cap divisions?

[zhunter]

A SS with an SV magwell is easier and faster to reload than a Production gun.

[OPENB]

You'll "score well" in either division since you are the only one. You shoot 100%.

[Corey]

If you are the only shooter, what does it matter? Unless you are talking about scoring well in combined results

[motosapiens]

Both divisions are the same amount of difficulty and can/should compete on equal footing.

What? Well they definitely aren't and don't.

I don't mind if you are wrong, but maybe you mean something other than what you wrote.

I shoot both and since there are usually only a handful of shooters in either division at local matches, I also look at the other division. We also have a couple other decent shooters that shoot both divisions locally. The results seem pretty consistent based on a year or so of careful observation.

[Racinready300ex]

I think you are looking at it wrong. It seems like you may just trying to feel better about yourself because the division you shoot is the hardest. I guess with that mindset open is the easiest. They get comps, dots, big sticks etc. Just ignore that everyone has that stuff, and that you need to go blazing fast with little room for error. Of course this also means that revolver is the hardest division. They have the hardest and most frequent reloads. The heaviest triggers, and minor scoring.

Another way to look at it is production is were most beginners start. The last club match I shot had 31 production shooters and almost half were unclassified. And of the ones classified most were C and D. There weren't many unclassified shooters in the other divisions. So you could argue that production would be the easiest division to do well in.

I don't know that any one division is really harder. They all have different challenges to over come. Your still shooting against others with similar gear.

[ES13Raven]

If you are the only shooter, what does it matter? Unless you are talking about scoring well in combined results

I wanted to take other competitors out of the equation, so people would focus on equipment only.

[ES13Raven]

I think you are looking at it wrong. It seems like you may just trying to feel better about yourself because the division you shoot is the hardest.

Wow... you nailed it. I feel so much better about myself.

I guess with that mindset open is the easiest. They get comps, dots, big sticks etc. Just ignore that everyone has that stuff, and that you need to go blazing fast with little room for error. Of course this also means that revolver is the hardest division. They have the hardest and most frequent reloads. The heaviest triggers, and minor scoring.

I agree with you here. I know shooters who shoot open in USPSA and many times place better than me in the Overall, but I always do better than them in IDPA or if they shoot Production / L10. I know I am a better shooter when the playing field is even. Comps, optics, race holsters, gas pedals, major PF scoring and 20+ round mags are definitely an advantage.

And yes - Revolver is definitely the most difficult division.

Edited June 2, 2015 by ES13Raven

[motosapiens]

If you are the only shooter, what does it matter? Unless you are talking about scoring well in combined results

I wanted to take other competitors out of the equation, so people would focus on equipment only.

It's a reasonable question, but your approach seems entirely subjective. It might shed some light on the subject to look at how shooters who compete in both divisions do in the overall. It can probably be useful to look at a match like battle in the bluegrass as well, but you'd have to take into account the relative skill of the shooters. I.E. if Ben comes and shoots production and wins the overall, or if nils comes and shoots ss and wins, it doesn't necessarily mean that division is an advantage, but probably just means the best shooter won.

One cool thing about SS is that do have the choice to shoot major for certain matches like nationals where major scoring is a proven advantage, but you can also choose minor for matches where the stage setup starts to favor the extra 2 rounds.

I personally *used* to think that production had an advantage in reloading, but with an ICE magwell, that advantage doesn't seem to be there any longer, at least for me. On all my timed drills, I shoot the same scores with either setup. In steel challenge, I shoot the same scores with either setup.

[ES13Raven]

It's a reasonable question, but your approach seems entirely subjective. It might shed some light on the subject to look at how shooters who compete in both divisions do in the overall. It can probably be useful to look at a match like battle in the bluegrass as well, but you'd have to take into account the relative skill of the shooters. I.E. if Ben comes and shoots production and wins the overall, or if nils comes and shoots ss and wins, it doesn't necessarily mean that division is an advantage, but probably just means the best shooter won.

It was meant to be subjective - this is an opinion poll. I guess I need to clarify more.

Down to basics - I think in general, shooting SS is a little easier than shooting Production because of the advantages the equipment gives - however small they are.

The level of talent in either Division may be better depending on where you are from, so I wanted people to vote based on equipment only - not other competitors.

But I think they are closer in level of difficulty than comparing any of the other Divisions, so I thought this would make for an interesting poll.

Edited June 2, 2015 by ES13Raven

[motosapiens]

It's a reasonable question, but your approach seems entirely subjective. It might shed some light on the subject to look at how shooters who compete in both divisions do in the overall. It can probably be useful to look at a match like battle in the bluegrass as well, but you'd have to take into account the relative skill of the shooters. I.E. if Ben comes and shoots production and wins the overall, or if nils comes and shoots ss and wins, it doesn't necessarily mean that division is an advantage, but probably just means the best shooter won.

It was meant to be subjective - this is an opinion poll. I guess I need to clarify more.

Down to basics - I think in general, shooting SS is a little easier than shooting Production because of the advantages the equipment gives - however small they are.

That makes sense if you are talking about crappy plastic guns, but I don't see how anyone could claim a 1911 has significant advantages over a stock ii or cz shadow.

I think it probably comes down to what you practice with more. I practice with both and they appear to be pretty equal, in subjective feel and in timed drill results and in overall match results, so I can't really vote in your poll.

[ES13Raven]

That makes sense if you are talking about crappy plastic guns, but I don't see how anyone could claim a 1911 has significant advantages over a stock ii or cz shadow.

I think it probably comes down to what you practice with more. I practice with both and they appear to be pretty equal, in subjective feel and in timed drill results and in overall match results, so I can't really vote in your poll.

I should have added this option from the beginning, but just for you - I added the "equal" option.

[motosapiens]

That makes sense if you are talking about crappy plastic guns, but I don't see how anyone could claim a 1911 has significant advantages over a stock ii or cz shadow.

I think it probably comes down to what you practice with more. I practice with both and they appear to be pretty equal, in subjective feel and in timed drill results and in overall match results, so I can't really vote in your poll.

I should have added this option from the beginning, but just for you - I added the "equal" option.

[tbarker13]

I took a break from production for a two weeks to shoot Single Stack Nationals.

I was surprised at how much easier it was to do the reloads with my .40 cal single stack gun with an Ice Magwell. It was just the opposite of what I'd been expecting.

[jkrispies]

I may do a proper point-by-point breakdown when I'm not in my phone, but I think...

Single Stack (especially with a magwell) has a distinct advantage over production if shooting minor due to equal scoring and mag size, plus that sweet trigger.

Single Stack in major will have a disadvantage if the course designs don't account for 8 round magazines: if if you throw a 10-round favored course in (or two or three of them) then things can get ugly pretty fast for us in SS major as well as revolver. HOWEVER, if all stages are 8-round friendly then I would again give the advantage to Single Stack due to better trigger and major scoring, assuming the shooter has solid shot placement and therefore doesn't need pickups.

Ultimately, it depends on a mixture of shooter and course design, and the shooter matters more both for skill and because the smart ones can game their stage plans to outwit the designers. We have a GM and M in production who show to my club's monthly matches, and I've seen them finish in top 5 of 80, beating limited and open shooters.

[motosapiens]

Single Stack (especially with a magwell) has a distinct advantage over production if shooting minor due to equal scoring and mag size, plus that sweet trigger.

You made some great points, but I must wonder if you think a worked-over 1911 trigger is significantly better than a worked over cz shadow trigger. I don't, but perhaps I'm not skilled enough yet to appreciate a superlight trigger. Mine all have crisp triggers in the 2.5-3# range.

[zhunter]

After the 1st shot there is no difference if you have a tuned CZ. If you practice even the first shot is not a big deal. Most of the time you can choose an easy open target for your DA shot

[motosapiens]

After the 1st shot there is no difference if you have a tuned CZ. If you practice even the first shot is not a big deal. Most of the time you can choose an easy open target for your DA shot

I couldn't find a difference even at steel challenge, where sometimes the first shot is not easy....... but i practice.

[jkrispies]

Single Stack (especially with a magwell) has a distinct advantage over production if shooting minor due to equal scoring and mag size, plus that sweet trigger.

You made some great points, but I must wonder if you think a worked-over 1911 trigger is significantly better than a worked over cz shadow trigger. I don't, but perhaps I'm not skilled enough yet to appreciate a superlight trigger. Mine all have crisp triggers in the 2.5-3# range.

I've never shot a CZ, so I'm not equipped to answer that. I can say that my 1911 was worked up for me by an amazing smith, is a smidge above 2#, and is oh-so-dreamy. On the flip side I once dry fired a Taurus 1911 in a gun shop, and I'd take my TTI mod'd Glock over that mess anytime. Hell, I might even take a stock Glock trigger over that gritty monster. Maybe the issue of trigger feel is too wrought with what-ifs to include in the equation?

[ES13Raven]

7 people voted that shooting with Production pistols is easier than SS. What are your reasons?