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MGM Ironman Pistol Caliber Carbine recommendations


michael1778

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Some of you have seen my other post on longer range rifle for Ironman; likely for 2016.

So, I'm interested in seeing what a realistic and competitive gear set would be for that, even if I lose my senses and think about Trooper division. Looks like more competitive Trroper shooters use pistol carbines.

If you were going to Ironman to shoot Trooper. What Pistol Caliber Carbine (PCC) would you bring in 2016 and why?

Would you convert existing AR-16 receivers you have on hand?

Would you buy the new JP buy once and cry once?

What about a JP GMR upper on a QC10 lower?

Perhaps an entirely different solution?

And what about optics on top? 1x only (EOtech or Aimpoint styles)? Or a good 1-4x where we know it will live almost all the time at 1x with slight magnification dial up in a copuple of places.? (I have one handy, so I'm asking)

How "big" a feature is bolt hold open at the end of a magazine? I imagine it matters on the clock, but I haven't used a PCC before.

Yes, I'd need to train my body extensively for next year. Yes, I need to get in lots of shooting drills and practice. I understand all of that. However, I'm not well informed on the PCC market, so I'm asking for help.I shoot a M&P pistol in Open/Unlimited. I don't have any investment in Glock magazines.

Thanks in advance for not laughing me off the boards for this. :cheers:

I'm also open to all sorts of Trooper recommendations big and small. If you think this thread isn't the best place then just message me directly with what you want to say.

Thank you again,

Mike

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Thats a lot of questions.

The last 3 years I used a JR Carbine. Ran Pretty well, gets dirty, action gets gum'd up after about 300 rounds. Why, Inexpensive.

This year I went the GMR13 on a QC10 lower route. So far it runs like a sewing machine. Why, I wanted to splurge.

I use an Eotech because I really like the 65 MOA ring. You dont really need magnification unless you are going to use the PCC for rifle targets.

According to the interwebs the BHO breaks easily so most people just bypass it. Try not to shoot to empty ;)

Buying a gun plus 33rd mags may be expensive to you, so think about it and then decide.

IMHO, the PCC makes trooper. But I am not a very good pistol shooter. If you can shoot a triple plate rack fast with a pistol, then maybe stick with the pistol.

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Joe,

Thank you for your reply and thoughts on Trooper. I'm not that great a precision pistol shooter, so the PCC would be a bonus for me. Also, I think I'd like to own one generally, not only for the match. With that in mind, I think of it as more of a long-term investment. Being reliable for days in dust and heavy use at Ironman makes me think this will be a "buy once, cry once" type of PCC purchase. That's why I was considering either a full JP GMR-13 or at least a GMR upper. It has got to run and run hard.

EOtech is a great option for how my eyes work. I have one on my Open shotgun.

The unique challenge of Trooper appeals to me, but I will need time to gather all the materials and prepare myself.

Question to you:

Why the GMR upper on that particular lower? I've seen that others have done that. Was it for particular function, ergonomics, or cost?

Thanks again,

Mike

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I have been running my MP5 clone for the past 6 years or so. Other then forgetting a chamber flag while going down the zipline (oops), it has been the most reliable weapon I have taken to Ironman bar none.

A red dot with a good zero and knowing its POI out to 100yds gives you a great tool for engaging all pistol targets, and even a good portion of the rifle targets out too 100yds. My best to date was shooting down a whirlygig from about 70yards off of a tank trap barricade (stage2 from 2-3years ago).

Big bonus in Trooper is having one gun that can shoot both pistol and rifle targets. That means if your rifle goes down, you can continue and get all the rifle engagements with the PCC, and still get pistol work done with the PCC or pistol too.

Just bring enough magazines and know how to work which ever PCC you go with.

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Not buying the JP lower was a personal preference. I like to chose my own buttstock and grip. I also wanted to chose my own trigger but it seems that the 9mm bolt only works with full face milspec hammers. My geissele trigger would not reset. I called JP and they confirmed this.

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Buy a Colt 6951, install the trigger, furniture and sights of your choice and call it good.

Mick

That's been one to consider, yes. Thanks.

The JP GMR-13 and the Colt 6951 have been top contenders from what I had seen. Good to know others think the same.

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I have a QC10 lower with a Gibbs side charging upper. Runs flawlessly. If I shoot trooper this year, I'll run it. I used a CMMG setup the last two years using a VM Hytec block and UZI mags. It ran great also! I had a Geissele SD3G trigger and cheap Bushnell 1x on it. I was quad tapping spinners and spinning them quickly.

The most fun I've ever had at ANY match was when shooting my PCC at pistol targets. I recommend shooting trooper at least once. It's a blast! I might be shooting limited this year to take a little break from the 150lb load out ;)

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I have a QC10 lower with a Gibbs side charging upper. Runs flawlessly. If I shoot trooper this year, I'll run it. I used a CMMG setup the last two years using a VM Hytec block and UZI mags. It ran great also! I had a Geissele SD3G trigger and cheap Bushnell 1x on it. I was quad tapping spinners and spinning them quickly.

The most fun I've ever had at ANY match was when shooting my PCC at pistol targets. I recommend shooting trooper at least once. It's a blast! I might be shooting limited this year to take a little break from the 150lb load out ;)

James,

Thank you. I had not heard of Gibbs before.

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I've used a Glock with a stock (company owned full auto), Mini Uzi SBR, 9mm AR15, and most recently Brethren Arms BAP 9mm.

The Glock with a stock sucked to shoot. It was the mako telescoping style and it has a lot of flex that actually makes it slower. The only good thing was carrying it in a drop leg rig was easy.

The Mini Uzi SBR was utterly reliable and accurate. Everything about running that gun is slow and clunky though.

The 9mm ARs I've used all have varying levels of failures to extract and failures to eject. Discussing this with my friend Dusty Hahn at Hahn precision the problem is the extractors lose tension and drop casings before hitting the ejector. The 9mm AR really should have been updated with a spring loaded extractor. Obviously using the 9mm is the most natural since the rifles we shoot operate the same, but the reliability issues made me go away from them.

The BAP9 (MP5 Clone) has the right combination of accuracy, handling, and reliability for me.

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I'm going to purchase a 9mm carbine (my first AR platform) and have narrowed it down to the CMMG MK9, Colt 6951, and full JP GMR13. The CMMG is attractive due to a good reputation and price (I can purchase one for less than $900), the Colt has a good reputation (about $1,250), the JP a great reputation but expensive (close to $2,000 if I'm not mistaken). I understand the advantages of going with a .223, but I'll be able to shoot the 9mm more due to range restrictions. I'd appreciate your comments regarding the advantages and disadvantages of these carbines. I don't want to buy at the low end and regret it. Thanks in advance, Dr.J

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I've used a Glock with a stock (company owned full auto), Mini Uzi SBR, 9mm AR15, and most recently Brethren Arms BAP 9mm.

The Glock with a stock sucked to shoot. It was the mako telescoping style and it has a lot of flex that actually makes it slower. The only good thing was carrying it in a drop leg rig was easy.

The Mini Uzi SBR was utterly reliable and accurate. Everything about running that gun is slow and clunky though.

The 9mm ARs I've used all have varying levels of failures to extract and failures to eject. Discussing this with my friend Dusty Hahn at Hahn precision the problem is the extractors lose tension and drop casings before hitting the ejector. The 9mm AR really should have been updated with a spring loaded extractor. Obviously using the 9mm is the most natural since the rifles we shoot operate the same, but the reliability issues made me go away from them.

The BAP9 (MP5 Clone) has the right combination of accuracy, handling, and reliability for me.

Isn't that gun well north of $2000 *and* needs an SBR tax stamp? I've had the pleasure of firing a true MP5 and UMP 40 from H&K, but ouch! I'm not sure I can swing that. However it seemed like a great gun in your videos. More things to consider.....

I have enjoyed your blog posts. Looks like the PCC is a critical element for many Trooper competitors, based on your reported use pattern.

I'm going to purchase a 9mm carbine (my first AR platform) and have narrowed it down to the CMMG MK9, Colt 6951, and full JP GMR13. The CMMG is attractive due to a good reputation and price (I can purchase one for less than $900), the Colt has a good reputation (about $1,250), the JP a great reputation but expensive (close to $2,000 if I'm not mistaken). I understand the advantages of going with a .223, but I'll be able to shoot the 9mm more due to range restrictions. I'd appreciate your comments regarding the advantages and disadvantages of these carbines. I don't want to buy at the low end and regret it. Thanks in advance, Dr.J

Dr. J, this borders on a thread-jack, but I can say that the JP isn't quite as expensive as you estimate. At least the one I made in their Rifle Builder isn't that expensive. I did not opt for the SCR-11 side charging upper. That would drive up the cost by hundreds. My build clocks in about about $1500 on their site (uses the JP-15 style upper).

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Michael

I'm collaborating with Brethren on a Non-NFA model that will be more oriented towards what competition shooters would want for PCC matches or events like Ironman.

The guns are expensive, but they do work well. I wish I could get back all the money I wasted trying other designs and the ammo I put through them.

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  • 2 months later...

After finishing 9th in Trooper this year I can see that using a PCC is a MUST! Not only did they have more fun than me, some of the steel pistol targets were very challenging for a handgun and I spent too much time trying to neutralize them. The PCCs handled the long steel like a rifle and chewed through the 18 plate racks like they were nothing. I already have a JP 9mm Carbine lined up for next year and wish I would have taken the offer of a borrowed one this year. Live and learn, without the PCC you might as well shoot Open.

Doug

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After finishing 9th in Trooper this year I can see that using a PCC is a MUST! Not only did they have more fun than me, some of the steel pistol targets were very challenging for a handgun and I spent too much time trying to neutralize them. The PCCs handled the long steel like a rifle and chewed through the 18 plate racks like they were nothing. I already have a JP 9mm Carbine lined up for next year and wish I would have taken the offer of a borrowed one this year. Live and learn, without the PCC you might as well shoot Open.

Doug

Well, that seals that deal. If I do Trooper I'll do a PCC because my long range pistol work isn't exactly up to scratch. Thank you very much for the latest and greatest feedback so soon after the match.

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I love my JP 9mm. It served me well at IM this year and is an absolute joy in a pistol bay. In my mind a PCC is far more important than a bonus gun for a trooper, where else are you allowed to rock one? I did not chamber a single round in a pistol the whole match.

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Interesting, I shot trooper once several years ago with my limited gun, I don't remember anything so hard that needing a PCC gun was a better choice. Since then I moved into USPSA Open with a custom built 2011. So my question is would you take a PCC over a full raced out 2011 Open gun?

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The best shooter always wins no matter what gear they use in trooper. I tip my hat to Wyatt and am honored to even get to shoot against the young man. More guns equals more options and more options equals more fun. Shooting trooper without taking advantage of the rules and using as many guns as you can carry is just silly, then it is just carrying your shit around for no good reason. I used to believe I was fast enough with an open pistol that there was no advantage, then I realized I was just fooling myself. I am faster with my PCC then I am with my open pistol on Ironman type stages, but more importantly I enjoy shooting my PCC more than I do my open pistol. In the last few years the ironman was starting to loose a bit of it's luster for me for a number of reasons. Shooting trooper and taking a bunch of guns brought back the sort of fun I had the first time I shot it. I would never again shoot trooper without a PCC, there is no point to it for me, I would sooner shoot it in limited.

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Interesting, I shot trooper once several years ago with my limited gun, I don't remember anything so hard that needing a PCC gun was a better choice. Since then I moved into USPSA Open with a custom built 2011. So my question is would you take a PCC over a full raced out 2011 Open gun?

I shot my full raced custom STI 2011 9mm Major pistol and yes, next year I will shoot the pistol targets with a PCC. I've shot Ironman at least 5 times since 2008 and I don't remember pistol targets this challenging. From my experience there is no question that a PCC is faster than an Open pistol.

Doug

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This was the first year I shot Ironman not in Trooper (10th year for me). I too noted the pistol targets were just harder with a red dot Glock VS my MP5 with red dot from years past.

If you shoot in Trooper div, use a PCC. Otherwise just shoot a different division.

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