Jaycwebb Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Are there any rules preventing a shooter from using multiple holsters/gunbelts in a single match? Let's say I wanted to switch belts/rig between stages, and I observed all other safety/ logistics issues, are there any rules that say you have to use the same holster the entire time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishop414 Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) Wrong rule set quoted. Sorry. Don't think there is an issue with USPSA. Edited February 23, 2015 by bishop414 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 USPSA: 5.2.5.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied equipment on the belt must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaycwebb Posted February 23, 2015 Author Share Posted February 23, 2015 Thanks Dave! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 However, if you are wanting to run another classifier with a different gun and it requires a different holster, it is fine. Make sure to go through the proper procedures for putting away your firearms when changing up. Also, that rule deals with the position of the equipment on the belt, not specifying that you must use the same holster all the way through the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Also, that rule deals with the position of the equipment on the belt, not specifying that you must use the same holster all the way through the match. Good answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 However, if you are wanting to run another classifier with a different gun and it requires a different holster, it is fine. Make sure to go through the proper procedures for putting away your firearms when changing up. Also, that rule deals with the position of the equipment on the belt, not specifying that you must use the same holster all the way through the match. lol.. you can change holsters.. but position can't be changed? i'll disagree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Are there any rules preventing a shooter from using multiple holsters/gunbelts in a single match? Let's say I wanted to switch belts/rig between stages, and I observed all other safety/ logistics issues, are there any rules that say you have to use the same holster the entire time? Why would you want to change holster/rigs during a match??? If the holster broke, i see no problem with changing it out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 the position of holsters and allied equipment on the belt must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match. The rule seems to be pretty specific in addressing position, not equipment. Pretty sure the intent was to stop people from rearranging their belt to fit the stage, not to stop you from replacing an item that broke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) Are there any rules preventing a shooter from using multiple holsters/gunbelts in a single match? Let's say I wanted to switch belts/rig between stages, and I observed all other safety/ logistics issues, are there any rules that say you have to use the same holster the entire time? Why would you want to change holster/rigs during a match??? If the holster broke, i see no problem with changing it out... agreed... no different than using a backup gun Edited February 23, 2015 by D.Hayden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) USPSA: 5.2.5.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied equipment on the belt must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match. THIS. If you remove Holster #1 and put it in your range bag, then place Holster #2 on your belt, I would contend that you have changed the position of Holster #1 (moved it from your belt to your range bag). As an official, I would refer any such request to the RM for approval, in the same way as I would for a gun change. However, I am not sure how I would know the holster was being changed unless the competitor told me or I saw them making the change right in front of me. Edited February 23, 2015 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) Why would you want to change holster/rigs during a match??? During an all classifier match I ran one time, I had a guy who wanted to get classified in two divisions that day and it required a belt change since it was revolver and L10. I allowed it since the rule is just to keep someone from moving the position of the items on the belt. As long as they place the belt back on the same way, which was pretty obvious, there was not a break in the rules or spirit of the match. Ok, could he have been off by a few millimeters when he reapplied the belts, sure...does it compromise the match or scores or rules? No. Only the first set of scores were used for match results, all classifiers were sent in. Before anyone asks, no, we did not have time to run shooters through at the end for all the stages. It was more efficient to have him (and he was the only one) shoot, go and gear up for the other one and shoot again with his squad for each division. It worked out perfectly and everyone went home happy. The end. Edited February 23, 2015 by gng4life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 USPSA: 5.2.5.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied equipment on the belt must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match. THIS. If you remove Holster #1 and put it in your range bag, then place Holster #2 on your belt, I would contend that you have changed the position of Holster #1 (moved it from your belt to your range bag). As an official, I would refer any such request to the RM for approval, in the same way as I would for a gun change. However, I am not sure how I would know the holster was being changed unless the competitor told me or I saw them making the change right in front of me. I can take my belt and equipment off, as long as I put my gun up and put the belt back on in the same place. By your definition is that changing the position of Holster #1 as I took it off? Nowhere in that rule does it say you can't change holsters. If you change guns you need to ask the RM, holsters or other stuff not so much as long as you keep them in the same position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 I think a reasonable interpretation of this rule is that you can take off your gunbelt to go poo, or you can replace a broken holster or mag pouch, but if you tried to switch back and forth between a race holster and regular DOH holster depending on the start position, or if you wanted to remove some mag pouches for a stage where you had to get in a particular position and then put them back on for the next stage, that might be a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 but if you tried to switch back and forth between a race holster and regular DOH holster depending on the start position, or if you wanted to remove some mag pouches for a stage where you had to get in a particular position and then put them back on for the next stage, that might be a problem. That WOULD be a problem. It's called cheating! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 but if you tried to switch back and forth between a race holster and regular DOH holster depending on the start position, or if you wanted to remove some mag pouches for a stage where you had to get in a particular position and then put them back on for the next stage, that might be a problem. That WOULD be a problem. It's called cheating! Please clarify for explanation sake. Not disagreeing with you, just want a little more than "it's cheating". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robb315 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 but if you tried to switch back and forth between a race holster and regular DOH holster depending on the start position, or if you wanted to remove some mag pouches for a stage where you had to get in a particular position and then put them back on for the next stage, that might be a problem.That WOULD be a problem. It's called cheating! Please clarify for explanation sake. Not disagreeing with you, just want a little more than "it's cheating". 5.2.5.3 - Equipment on belt can not be moved or CHANGED during the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 (edited) but if you tried to switch back and forth between a race holster and regular DOH holster depending on the start position, or if you wanted to remove some mag pouches for a stage where you had to get in a particular position and then put them back on for the next stage, that might be a problem.That WOULD be a problem. It's called cheating! Please clarify for explanation sake. Not disagreeing with you, just want a little more than "it's cheating". 5.2.5.3 - Equipment on belt can not be moved or CHANGED during the match. Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied equipment on the belt must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match. (my emphases added) You have to use the whole sentence. When you do, it is clear that "the position" is what can't be moved or changed. If it said just "Equipment" it would be different but not only do you ignore the first part of the sentence, you capitalize equipment to make it look like it is the beginning of the sentence. If you are going to quote a rule at least quote whole sentences, and don't change them. edit to fix spelling. Edited February 24, 2015 by ktm300 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaycwebb Posted February 24, 2015 Author Share Posted February 24, 2015 Sarge and a few others have made clear the common meaning of the rule, which is what I was asking about. The language of the rulebook is ambiguous, which is why I asked about it. I didn't know if it mean that A "You can't change anything at all once the match starts, you have to run the same gear, and you can't fiddle with it." or B "You can't move Gear, but if you happen to switch gear sets, said gear sets must remain 'Fiddle Free' and you can't mess with them once the match starts." Someone hit the nail on the head. Having two belts with different holsters/pouches to swap between for different stages.If the common answer is A they should clarify the rulebook with the next revision IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 To be honest, I've never really considered this before. The wording states that you cannot change the position of a holster or mag holder yet this is something that I have seen done on several occasions, I've even seen people swap rigs completely. And in all honesty, I'm not sure what the reasoning for the rule is. As long as the gear meets division requirements for type and placement, what difference does it make? This isn't a pool game where someone suddenly brings out their "two-piece custom made pool cue" once enough money is on the table. The intent of the rule can be as important as the wording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilBunniFuFu Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 At the Florida open this year there was a prone table start. I saw some belts that only had one mag pouch for that emergency reload. Mag pouches in our gut aren't fun though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Why would you want to change holster/rigs during a match??? During an all classifier match I ran one time, I had a guy who wanted to get classified in two divisions that day and it required a belt change since it was revolver and L10. I allowed it since the rule is just to keep someone from moving the position of the items on the belt. As long as they place the belt back on the same way, which was pretty obvious, there was not a break in the rules or spirit of the match. Ok, could he have been off by a few millimeters when he reapplied the belts, sure...does it compromise the match or scores or rules? No. Only the first set of scores were used for match results, all classifiers were sent in. Before anyone asks, no, we did not have time to run shooters through at the end for all the stages. It was more efficient to have him (and he was the only one) shoot, go and gear up for the other one and shoot again with his squad for each division. It worked out perfectly and everyone went home happy. The end. This scenario is fine...and no problems...changing rigs for a different classifiers is no problem. People take their rigs off during lunch, and multi-day matches (nationals, for example). Restroom breaks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 At the Florida open this year there was a prone table start. I saw some belts that only had one mag pouch for that emergency reload. Mag pouches in our gut aren't fun though. If the competitor changed their rig for that stage that was contrary to the rule and the RO's on the stage should have noticed. Lots to think about on match day and we all make mistakes. The number and location of holster, mag pouches, and any other equipment, by rule, should stay the same for the whole match. If people changed their setup for that stage and changed it back that was against the rules. There is nothing in the rules that says you can't change equipment, just the location of the equipment. Should USPSA clarify that rule, I don't think so but that is just an opinion and we all are entitled to our own. I wouldn't care if 5.2.5.3 went away. It would add something else to think about when you walked a stage. In IPSC they go to a lot of trouble to make sure you don't change equipment or location of equipment. It is a PITA to do equipment checks each stage, most IPSC RO's don't do it well, and I would hate to see USPSA adopt those rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Not sure how the rule isn't clear.....you can't move or change the position. It should be pretty clear that if you change rigs, add or remove holsters or allied equipment you have changed or moved their position. It has moved from where it was before it was on your body (in your car, in your bag, etc..) to being on your body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 The intent of the rule can be as important as the wording. The intent is to use what you have throughout the match...you can't take off a mag pouch in the front because it hurts while going prone...you can't take off a mag pouch in the back because it will catch the chair as you are standing up...you can't take off your rig because it's a table start and all mags must come from table... You have seen people remove mag pouches...but it's against the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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