TnBaadBoy Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Clasifier Times: MA < 102.0 EX < 124.0 SS < 158.0 MM < 218.0 SSR = Speedloaders only ESR = Moonclips permitted Power Factor SSR = 105; ESR = 155 So (maybe) the demise of the #625 is a tad 'early' to call?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordfan485 Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Also a new BUG-R division: 8.2.6.7 Revolver BUG (BUG-R) 8.2.6.7.1 Handguns permitted for use in BUG-R must be: 8.2.6.7.1.1 Any revolver that uses .38 or larger cartridges with a rimmed case and is not loaded with moon clips. 8.2.6.7.1.2 The use of trimmed (shortened) ammunition is not allowed. 8.2.6.7.1.4 Barrel length of 3.0” (76.2 mm) or less (as measured from the front of the cylinder). 8.2.6.7.1.5 The unloaded firearm must weigh 38.00 oz. (1077.3 grams) or less. 8.2.6.7.1.6 Be loaded to the division capacity of six (6) rounds in the cylinder. 8.2.6.7.1.7 The firearm must fit in the IDPA gun test box measuring 8 3/4” x 5 ½” x 1 5/8” (222.3 mm x 139.7 mm x 41.3 mm.) 8.2.6.7.2 Revolver BUG Modifications: Revolver BUG must comply with all Stock Revolver features and modifications, and equipment restrictions. 8.3.1 Ammunition Power The goal is to compete with commonly available ammunition. The minimum power factors are: 8.3.1.6 BUG - 95 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueridge Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Looks interesting. The sub-category thing will make awards interesting. I guess there will be an overall Revolver awards, and then sub category awards for the top Stock Revolver and Enhanced Revolver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underlug Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 looks like short and long colt are legal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 looks like short and long colt are legal 8.2.5 Revolver Division (REV) Revolvers will be categorized into one of the two following sub-categories: Stock Revolver or Enhanced Revolver 8.2.5.1 Stock Revolver handguns permitted for use must be: 8.2.5.1.1 Any revolver that uses .38 Special or larger cartridges with a rimmed case and is not loaded with moon clips. - 40 - 8.2.5.1.2 The unloaded firearm must weigh 43.00 oz. (1219.0 grams) or less. 8.2.5.2 Enhanced Revolver handguns permitted for use must be: 8.2.5.2.1 Any revolver that uses .357 magnum or larger cartridges with rimmed or rimless cases. 8.2.5.2.2 The unloaded firearm must weigh 50.00 oz. (1417.5 grams) or less. 8.2.5.2.3 May be loaded via speed loader or full moon clip. 8.2.5.3 Stock and Enhanced Revolver requirements: 8.2.5.3.1 The use of trimmed (shortened) ammunition is not allowed. 8.2.5.3.2 Ammunition used must match the cartridge listed on the firearm with the following exceptions: 8.2.5.3.2.1 .38 special in .357 magnum 8.2.5.3.2.2 .44 special in .44 magnum 8.2.5.3.2.3 .45 Auto Rim or .45 GAP in .45 ACP 8.2.5.3.2.4 .45 ACP or .45 GAP in .45 Colt 8.2.5.3.2.5 .40 S&W in 10mm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcb Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 38 S&W is larger in diameter than 38Special and 357 Mag. Think they will allow it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 38 S&W is larger in diameter than 38Special and 357 Mag. Think they will allow it? As long as the gun is marked that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polymerfeelsweirdman Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 686 is going to dominate the BuG-R division haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 38 S&W is larger in diameter than 38Special and 357 Mag. Think they will allow it? We went around with this a few days ago. I doubt they would allow it, even if you showed up with a Lend Lease .38/200 British. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jh9 Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 (edited) 8.2.5.3.2.3 .45 Auto Rim or .45 GAP in .45 ACP In addition to the lowered 155 PF this means the 625 not only survived, it just took over SSR. This is ESR plus "people that want to dip their toes in the water can shoot .38s". I guess it makes sense. S&W sells 627s and 929s to USPSA shooters and keeps the 625 lines open for IDPA shooters. They really should call "revolver" division the "Revolver: Brought to you by Smith and Wesson" division. ...Which wouldn't actually annoy me that much if they could be bothered to turn out more than kit guns that need immediate gunsmith attention. Y'know, to fill the bespoke divisions made just for S&W. In. Both. Games. Edited January 30, 2015 by jh9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnRodriguez Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 looks like I'll continue to run my 625 mountain gun in ESR. If this turns out to be official, then I'll probably re join IDPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcb Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) 38 S&W is larger in diameter than 38Special and 357 Mag. Think they will allow it? We went around with this a few days ago. I doubt they would allow it, even if you showed up with a Lend Lease .38/200 British. Yeah I was the yahoo that started that thread over at the IDPA forum. As I stated in that thread the language establishing what is a legal cartridge is horrible and does not say what they probably intend. So for SSR its: 8.2.5.1.1 Any revolver that uses .38 Special or larger cartridges with a rimmed case and is not loaded with moon clips. "larger cartridge" is very imprecise phrase in this context. I would argue that it can only mean diameter and not length. Follow me here. We all accept that 45 Auto Rim is a legal in SSR. Then how can 38S&W not be legal. 45 Auto Rim is larger in caliber but shorter in case length than 38 Special. 38 S&W is also larger in caliber and shorter in case length. How can you read that rule and say 45 Auto Rim is legal but 38 S&W is not legal without simple making up arbitrary declaration after the fact. If they want to not allow 38S&W that would be fine but the rules as written does not reflect what we all think they probably meant to say. Its not that hard to write this rule as to leave no wiggle room. 8.2.5.2.1 Any revolver that uses .357 magnum or larger cartridges with rimmed or rimless cases. If we assume case length is a criteria then ESR rules also seem to say that you must use 357 Magnum brass if shooting moonclips even though a 155 power factor is achievable with 38 Special +P. But then most other common "IDPA" revolver cartridges would be illegal since 40S&W, 10mm Auto, 45 ACP, 44 Special, even 44 Mag and 45 Colt (by 0.005 inch) are all shorter than 357 Mag cases. It would be 357 Mag, 41 Mag and a few other of the super mag revolver cartridges that would be legal. Yes I am being a bit silly and pedantic but hope you see my point. The language is vague and open to several funky interpretations. Why didn't they get some good technical writers to help them clear up this poor language? Edited January 31, 2015 by mcb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihocky2 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 I don't know, my times with my 686 and my 625 are not that much different. Usually what I lose in my SSR reload I make up in my splits since the sights move a lot less. I think it will only be the guys right at the top of their classes that will see the benefit of the 625. Over the course of a major match I definitely notice more hand/arm fatigue after shooting ESR. SSR I can maintain a more consistent pace all day because of the easier control. 155 is softer than 165 but is still going to thump more than 105. The biggest advantage is a fumbled reload, you only have to pick up a full moonclip instead of trying to retrieve a full on yard sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordfan485 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 I don't know, my times with my 686 and my 625 are not that much different. Usually what I lose in my SSR reload I make up in my splits since the sights move a lot less. I think it will only be the guys right at the top of their classes that will see the benefit of the 625. Over the course of a major match I definitely notice more hand/arm fatigue after shooting ESR. SSR I can maintain a more consistent pace all day because of the easier control. 155 is softer than 165 but is still going to thump more than 105. The biggest advantage is a fumbled reload, you only have to pick up a full moonclip instead of trying to retrieve a full on yard sale. Another advantage the ESR has is mandatory reloads with retention. Pain in the ass with a non moon clipped gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwx40x40 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 686 is going to dominate the BuG-R division haha Is kind of funny since most folks think of J Frames as BUG guns, they will not have a chance against 38oz 6 shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordfan485 Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) 686 is going to dominate the BuG-R division hahaIs kind of funny since most folks think of J Frames as BUG guns, they will not have a chance against 38oz 6 shots.Yea the j frame is not competitve at all. My club runs a modified idpa match once a month that is revolver friendly. Semi autos can play too but can't load more than six in the gun. I came in dead last shooting my 642 one month. Loading from speed strips was SLOW. my hks slow loaders were even slower because they get hung up on the grips. Edited February 3, 2015 by Fordfan485 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihocky2 Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Rumor had been for a while that BUG rules would be changed to get rid of the gamer guns and make it more friendly for the J-frames and sub-compacts. I will still shoot my J-frame because it is what I carry, but if I really wanted a trophy it would be the last thing I would take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 No rimless rounds/moonclips means no 442 or LCR 9mm. It would be kinda fun to try and take on a COF with a tiny 5 shot moonclip gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcb Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 442/642 are chamber for 38 Special. Not competitive in the revamped BUG division but perfectly legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordfan485 Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 You would think they would atleast throw the 5 shot revolvers a bone and allow them to use moonclips in BUG-R. Would be an excuse to buy some more moons for my 642. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcb Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 You would think they would atleast throw the 5 shot revolvers a bone and allow them to use moonclips in BUG-R. Would be an excuse to buy some more moons for my 642. Two 442/642 will both fit in the BUG box simultaneously and even loaded be under the maximum BUG-R weight limit. I am going to start a petition to allow competitor duel wielded or used the second gun as a NY-City reload, shooters discretion, any pair but BUG guns that can pull this off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johniac7078 Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 The new revo rules convinced me to go back to SSP in IDPA. They killed SSR by making another unneeded rule change while at the same time making a division that is pretty much a G19 division. I don't get it at all. I am not going to invest in a 625 and all the stuff you need for it. Reloading 105 PF isn't worth it if you have to knockdown steel and I am not really into the reloading separately for steel and paper. I am more than pissed with this change if you can't tell, especially after cloning 2 686 into competition guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcb Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 The new revo rules convinced me to go back to SSP in IDPA. They killed SSR by making another unneeded rule change while at the same time making a division that is pretty much a G19 division. I don't get it at all. I am not going to invest in a 625 and all the stuff you need for it. Reloading 105 PF isn't worth it if you have to knockdown steel and I am not really into the reloading separately for steel and paper. I am more than pissed with this change if you can't tell, especially after cloning 2 686 into competition guns. ESR did not go away they rolled it into the new Revolver Division. There is now an ESR and an SSR sub-catagory. ESR remains pretty much unchanged other than a puzzling reduction in power factor from 165 to 155. I think if someone got real serious about it IDPA Revolver could be dominated by a 4-inch 625. Apparently from reading over that the IDPA forum only 74 shooters shot the classifier last year in ESR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordfan485 Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 The new revo rules convinced me to go back to SSP in IDPA. They killed SSR by making another unneeded rule change while at the same time making a division that is pretty much a G19 division. I don't get it at all. I am not going to invest in a 625 and all the stuff you need for it. Reloading 105 PF isn't worth it if you have to knockdown steel and I am not really into the reloading separately for steel and paper. I am more than pissed with this change if you can't tell, especially after cloning 2 686 into competition guns. Steel has to be calibrated for 95 PF for the new BUG division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Steel has to be calibrated for 95 PF for the new BUG division. That'll suck if there is any wind on the range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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