what's the call on a Squib round

[ron169]

Was filling in on the timer yesterday when we had something interesting happen. Before anyone ask, I'm not a certified RO, but help any way I can. One RO was filling his mags and the other was the shooter, shooting a revolver.

During the course of fire, the gun went click instead of bang. Shooter pulls the trigger again but cylinder won't turn. Then tries to open the cylinder but it's jammed and wouldn't open. Come to find out, it was a Squib and neither me nor the shooter heard the primer pop. The bullet was stuck half way in the cylinder and halfway in the barrel, preventing the cylinder from opening. The only way we could tell that was to stick a Squib rod intothe barrel. Now my rules question is this. How does this fit into the rules with putting your hand on front of the barrel of a loaded gun? I know on a semi auto gun you could drop the magazine and disassemble so that there is no loaded rounds. Kind of impossible to do in this situation. The shooter wound up pushing the squib rod into a target stand just enough to push the bullet into the cylinder so it could be opened, cleared and made safe.

[Sarge]

Technically you can still sweep yourself putting a squib rod in a barrel unless it's one of those L shaped doodads. Had I been the RO I would have stopped the shooter if I clearly saw the bullet stuck in the gun, then given special dispensation to the shooter to do so because he couldn't leave the line with a loaded gun anyway. But a shooter should never attempt to put a squib rod in a barrel without permission because he will DQ himself.

I was running a shooter once who turned the gun around and looked down the barrel to see if the squib cleared or not.

[ron169]

In this case the other RO came over with a squib rod and putt it in the barrel. I know the situation was handled as safely as possible, j just have no clue how it fits in the rules as far as sweeping yourself or someone else's hand.

[teros135]

Just for the future, it would be good if the two ROs staggered themselves so one would always be available to officiate. That would take some load off the other squad members, such as the OP. Also, an RO would be available to deal with problems of this type. Good experience for the OP, but he shouldn't have had to be in that position.

That said, safety (and the rules) dictates that we can't sweep ourselves, even if in a "good intentioned" situation where we're "pretty sure" the gun won't fire. I agree that the RO needs to clearly give permission for the squib rod to be used.

For those ROs who keep a "squib detector" (such as a long cable tie) in their pocket, this can be inserted into autos from the breech end of the barrel, doesn't have to be inserted from the muzzle. For revolvers, RO can insert from the muzzle to check for distance to an obstruction, but I'd *only* do that after everything else has been checked out and the hammer is clearly down and the trigger in its normal, forward position (so the FP blocking mechanism is active). And, cable ties are flexible and can be inserted somewhat from the side, so fingers are still not downstream of the muzzle.

[9x45]

No one puts their hand in front of a gun, loaded or not, including the RO. Once it was visually determined to be a squib, the RO should have instructed the shooter to holster the weapon and return to the designated safety area (with the RO) and clear the squib. You never try to fix a gun on the line.

[louu]

Did he get a reshoot?

[ron169]

Did he get a reshoot?

Yeah he got a reshoot

[coldchar]

Before putting a squib rod down the barrel, the RO should end the course of fire. This prevents the shooter from being DQ'd for sweeping himself during the course of fire. The RO must then take whatever steps are needed to determine the gun is in a non fireable condition. The shooter can then be escorted to the safe area to clear the squib. The stage is scored as shot. No reshoot should occur.

Jim

[bikerburgess]

Did he get a reshoot?

Yeah he got a reshoot

He should not have got a re shoot, it sounds like he stopped himself due to a gun problem should be scored as shot. Clear the gun then score the targets. The only re shoot involving a Squibb is if the RO stops a shooter for a possible Squibb and there isn't one

[1time]

I'm not an RO so I am asking to learn something. If a squib locks up a revolver to it can't be unloaded they are supposed to take it to a safe area? Isn't having a loaded gun or even ammo in a safe area a dq or is it okay because they are under RO supervision?

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[coldchar]

Squib is just a piece of lead in the barrel. It isn't ammo. So taking it to the safe area is fine. If the gun had jammed, as in a failure to feed,, that would have to be cleared in the bay. If it could not be cleared, call for a gun smith who can make the gun unable to fire and thus safe, bag it and the shooter can leave the bay with a bagged gun.

Jim

[ron169]

That was the problem. It was a revolver. The bullet was stuck half way between the cylinder and the barrel, preventing the cylinder from opening. Therefore, could not make gun safe without pushing the bullet back into the cylinder. Only way to do that was with a squib rod. When I realized that it was more than a normal malfunction, I called over a senior RO, who used to run the local matches. I then let him handle the situation. I was merely looking for the rule in the rule book that gives the proper way to handle the situation. It almost seems like a catch 22 to me.

[coldchar]

It was a normal malfunction for a revolver. The bullet, not a loaded round, was stuck between the forcing cone and the cylinder. Once you determined it was just a piece of lead, treat it the same as a piece of lead stuck solely in the barrel. If it could not be readily cleared in the bay, get him into the safety area to play with it.

Jim

[Sarge]

It was a normal malfunction for a revolver. The bullet, not a loaded round, was stuck between the forcing cone and the cylinder. Once you determined it was just a piece of lead, treat it the same as a piece of lead stuck solely in the barrel. If it could not be readily cleared in the bay, get him into the safety area to play with it.

Jim

That's not true. If the gun is still loaded, which this gun apparently was, it can't leave the bay until made safe. Or maybe that's what you meant?

[coldchar]

Good catch, there were probably still rounds in the cylinder. Going to have to make it safe in the bay.

Jim

[JayWord]

Good catch, there were probably still rounds in the cylinder. Going to have to make it safe in the bay.

Jim

Absolutely. With a revolver, you have to push the bullet back into the cylinder to allow the crane to swing open. This has to be done on the line per 5.7.5 The nice thing is since the cylinder could not turn, you know the round in the chamber is spent. On an auto once you are sure the firearm is clear you can have the competitor go to the safety area, but not with a revolver; you or another RO is going to have to push it back.

The competitor is not entitled to a reshoot per 5.7.4.

Jay

In my opinion there is no safe way for a competitor to clear a squib under the clock. It is just too easy to sweep yourself trying to get the squib rod into place assuming of course you carry one in your back pocket. My brass ones end up making holes and falling out. That is why I no longer carry it on my person, but keep in my range bag or RO bag.

J

[Nik Habicht]

Good catch, there were probably still rounds in the cylinder. Going to have to make it safe in the bay.

Jim

Absolutely. With a revolver, you have to push the bullet back into the cylinder to allow the crane to swing open. This has to be done on the line per 5.7.5 The nice thing is since the cylinder could not turn, you know the round in the chamber is spent. On an auto once you are sure the firearm is clear you can have the competitor go to the safety area, but not with a revolver; you or another RO is going to have to push it back.

The competitor is not entitled to a reshoot per 5.7.4.

Jay

In my opinion there is no safe way for a competitor to clear a squib under the clock. It is just too easy to sweep yourself trying to get the squib rod into place assuming of course you carry one in your back pocket. My brass ones end up making holes and falling out. That is why I no longer carry it on my person, but keep in my range bag or RO bag.

J

Jay,

what about a long zip tie inserted through the chamber end of an auto? Shooter clears the gun on the clock, whips out the zip tie and inserts it through the open breech/chamber, sees the other end come out of the muzzle, withdraws it and loads and continues? What's unsafe about that?

[xrayfk05]

what about a long zip tie inserted through the chamber end of an auto? Shooter clears the gun on the clock, whips out the zip tie and inserts it through the open breech/chamber, sees the other end come out of the muzzle, withdraws it and loads and continues? What's unsafe about that?

How did he clear the squib? He will have to ram something down the barrel to clear the stuck bullet, that is the "dangerous" part.

Edited January 7, 2015 by xrayfk05

[9x45]

Good catch, there were probably still rounds in the cylinder. Going to have to make it safe in the bay.

Jim

Absolutely. With a revolver, you have to push the bullet back into the cylinder to allow the crane to swing open. This has to be done on the line per 5.7.5 The nice thing is since the cylinder could not turn, you know the round in the chamber is spent. On an auto once you are sure the firearm is clear you can have the competitor go to the safety area, but not with a revolver; you or another RO is going to have to push it back.

The competitor is not entitled to a reshoot per 5.7.4.

Jay

In my opinion there is no safe way for a competitor to clear a squib under the clock. It is just too easy to sweep yourself trying to get the squib rod into place assuming of course you carry one in your back pocket. My brass ones end up making holes and falling out. That is why I no longer carry it on my person, but keep in my range bag or RO bag.

J

Disagree with unloading at the line because under an RO's specific instruction you can proceed to the safety area per 10.5.13

5.7.5 Under no circumstances is a competitor permitted to leave a course of fire in the possession of a loaded handgun (see Rule 10.5.13).

10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the Range Officer.

[Gary Stevens]

When working as RM I always take charge of the weapon (possession) and then take whatever action I need to take to clear the weapon or render it safe.

[Sarge]

Good catch, there were probably still rounds in the cylinder. Going to have to make it safe in the bay.

Jim

Absolutely. With a revolver, you have to push the bullet back into the cylinder to allow the crane to swing open. This has to be done on the line per 5.7.5 The nice thing is since the cylinder could not turn, you know the round in the chamber is spent. On an auto once you are sure the firearm is clear you can have the competitor go to the safety area, but not with a revolver; you or another RO is going to have to push it back.

The competitor is not entitled to a reshoot per 5.7.4.

Jay

In my opinion there is no safe way for a competitor to clear a squib under the clock. It is just too easy to sweep yourself trying to get the squib rod into place assuming of course you carry one in your back pocket. My brass ones end up making holes and falling out. That is why I no longer carry it on my person, but keep in my range bag or RO bag.

J

Disagree with unloading at the line because under an RO's specific instruction you can proceed to the safety area per 10.5.13

5.7.5 Under no circumstances is a competitor permitted to leave a course of fire in the possession of a loaded handgun (see Rule 10.5.13).

10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the Range Officer.

2.4.2 Dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps

and empty cases), loaded magazines, loaded speed loading devices and

live rounds must not be handled in a Safety Area under any

circumstances (see Rule 10.5.12).

10.5.12 Handling live or dummy ammunition (including practice or training

rounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines or loaded speed

loading devices in a Safety Area, or failing to comply with Rule 2.4.1.

[motosapiens]

I like gary's method of not getting wrapped around the axle by blind reliance on the rules. If you can't clear the gun at the line in a reasonable fashion, then figure out what you need to do to safely clear it and continue the match. If you're not sure what to do, get the RM or most senior RO and pass the buck.

[Sarge]

I like gary's method of not getting wrapped around the axle by blind reliance on the rules. If you can't clear the gun at the line in a reasonable fashion, then figure out what you need to do to safely clear it and continue the match. If you're not sure what to do, get the RM or most senior RO and pass the buck.

I agree. But the LAST thing I would do is take a loaded gun to a safety area. Even if I were the RM.

[motosapiens]

I like gary's method of not getting wrapped around the axle by blind reliance on the rules. If you can't clear the gun at the line in a reasonable fashion, then figure out what you need to do to safely clear it and continue the match. If you're not sure what to do, get the RM or most senior RO and pass the buck.

I agree. But the LAST thing I would do is take a loaded gun to a safety area. Even if I were the RM.

Where else you gonna work on it? I suppose the firing line of a spare bay, if you have one available.

I had to switch to my spare gun at nationals one year. When I met the rangemaster at the safety table, I suddenly realized that there was a possibility that gun was loaded (i had just retrieved it from a locked case under the front seat of my car). The RM said, "no problem, if it's loaded, we'll clear it right here" at the safety table.

[louu]

Are youze guys talking IDPA rules or USPSA rules?