1911 SS Division

[wide45]

There is nothing more boring for me than a stage that has you running to three or four positions to shoot an identical or virtually identical number of rounds at each position. I'm much happier with 32 round breakdowns of 4-6-2-5-5-4-6 or 6-4-2-4-6-6-4 or 2-6-2-4-6-2-6-4. It doesn't always take a lot of wall sections --- you can use half a sheet of plywood, or a third of a fence section or a coupple of barrels to act as a vision barrier within a free fire zone. It seems harder in the beginning --- but that's mostly because it's new......

YES!

The truth will set you free!

[Flexmoney]

For those of us who don't have the pleasure of shooting your 8 round matches, could you explain the mechanics of those matches; guns allowed, divisions, stage design guidelines, etc.? Maybe others will take note and copy.

Pretty simple really...8 in the gun to start, 8 in the mags (not 8+1). No ports. No optics. Single-action and double-action guns shoot head-to-head (Kimbers, Glocks, Les Baer, Beretta, etc.).

Anytime that somebody shows up with a "fancy limited gun" , they have troubles, because their slide stops don't work.

[Flexmoney]

Of course, the key to making that work is to have "arrays" limted to 8 rounds.

* I use the term "arrays" generically...I don't mean to setup up stages to shoot 8 from this port...then go shoot 8 from that port...

[richardschennberg]

I believe Single Stack is workable if we do the following:

1. Allow both regular UPSA/IPSC matches with several recognized categories, and Single Stack only matches.

2. For matches with both Limited-10 and Single Stack, Score Single Stack shooters in Limited-10 but give awards or recognition for Single Stack equipment.

3. Coordinate with the 1911 Society so that their matches will be USPSA affliated.

4. Use the Limited-10 classification, and send in Single Stack classifiers as Limited-10. If no Limited-10 classification, use the shooter's Limited classification.

Richard

Schennberg.com

[JFD]

I don't see what's wrong with giving the SS division a try.

Some opinions on things that may only matter to me, but something here might be worth considering:

Our game is different than IDPA and trying to duplicate CDP isn't going to result in a mob of IDPA shooters. Concentrate on new (to competition) shooters, not stealing shooters from another sport who don't want to come. We already have divisions where IDPAers can fit. I know I've shot many USPSA matches with IDPA gear and have yet to develop a nervous twitch, burst into tears, or anything else. I did see the value of a couple of $24 10 round mags though. Believing we can snatch IDPAers with a simple equipment change is a sad plan with no hope of success. If Production division is currently awash with crossover IDPAers, and our membership increased with the introduction of Production, then please let me know that I'm wrong.

Locally L-10 always has more shooters than Production. Saturday it would have been more popular by a 2 to 1 margin if I hadn't shot my SS in Limited. My belief is that more folks who shoot the sport like freestyle and don't like being told where their mag pouches should be, especially when it should make no difference in our game. While I think most people can deal with a carry type holster, how many want to be grabbing mags from their butt crack region? I see rules dictating mag pouch position as a negative to the SS division. I can deal with grabbing 1 mag in an IDPA match, but not two or three (butt crack factor starts coming into play). This is the only reason I never shoot Production. Maybe my arm is crooked, but I can hardly draw from a carry holster if placed anywhere but the position in the rules, so this makes sense to me.

When I shoot L-10, trying to figure out how to shoot the stage with the limited rounds available is part of the fun and very do-able. I've used 8 round mags in my early days and I can't say that was fun as there are very few options, and seems like it would be less fun with the new 9 round rule. Revolver is full of tough folks who like this kind of challenge, so I guess we can expect 50 new members to USPSA...

It's hard to believe that there are a lot of clubs that can handle another match so they can run special stages with less round counts for the 8 round SS mags. Revolver shooters might like it as well, but they seem to be a pretty tough bunch who don't especially want special stages. I'm guessing if a club can find the time(only so many Saturdays and Sundays available) and the folks to donate even more time to the sport to setup and run these matches, then it would likely be worth the effort. Likely the shooters would be mainly current USPSA members looking for more trigger time though.

The big thought (after reading lots of threads) appears to be that loaded down Limited guns are unfair in L-10 and race holsters are too scary and expensive for IDPAers and newbies. I don't agree, but I'm not an IDPAer or a newbie, so I accept that these are valid reasons. My suggestion is to simply address these few issues without going overboard with mag capacity and mag pouch position rules. Again, this thought that we're going to steal or borrow IDPAers isn't realistic and only creates problems that will hurt the division.

I'd shoot the division if it was SS only and required a carry holster (I can use my now illegal Blade-Tech from my new but never used IDPA rig). If I've got to keep my mags where I can't reach them, use mags without enough rounds, or start taking parts off my gun, then I personally wouldn't consider shooting it. I'd still support trying it, but I do believe the equipment rules have gone overboard when loaded down Limited guns and race rigs are the only 2 generally accepted reasons ever given for L-10 not attracting new shooters. 10 round mags are damn near free when compared to the Limited mags I'm putting together, so surely those can't be a big issue.

Again, just my opinion.

[benos]

Wouldn’t it be interesting if instead of the USPSA Nationals being Limited/Revolver/Production and Open/L10, it was Open/Limited/L10 (race gun?) and 1911 SS/Production/Revolver (carry gun?), with 1911 SS/Production/Revolver requiring the Production holster/ammo carrier rules for all "divisions", 8 round limits for 1911 SS, 10 for Production, 6 for Revolver, no more than 6 required shots from a shooting position, and no more than 24 rounds per stage?

Without thinking about it too much, I like the idea in general.

A few random thoughts... L10 kinda got "hung on" to Limited class, because most didn't feel a SS could compete against hi-caps, under the prevailing C'sOF typically seen today. So they gave them a class and their "own" game to play. SS's were also deemed unfair in Production class, so the only place our "founding guns" could compete was in L10. To me, however, the idea of shooting a SS with a modern-day full race holster just seems silly. Especially in today's C'sOF.

Most SS (not L10) competitors are purists. And I could be off base, but I don't think most SS shooters would mind if it was Production class holster rules, 8 rounds in the gun, and 8 rounds max (or maybe 6) from a position. It just seems to make sense. And it also seems to make sense if the original guns that birthed the sport initially had a sensible place to compete today.

I also think the 9 round rule is silly. I remember The Great One telling me that once, at a Single Stack Classic match, there was 9 round, steel speed shoot!! Talk about encouraging the equipment race. He said because of that he built a .40 for that match. Now that Rob is shooting a .40 (at any match really), what do you think you'll have to shoot?

So my point of that is that a sport that hopes to survive in prinicpal and in application should never leave certain principles up to the discretion of match directors. Because even the most enthusiastic supporters of a particular principle will at times act as if they don't have a clue.

While of course many embrace the "it's all about Open" idea, there are also many who enjoy the challenge of seeing how they stand up to the fancy stuff with their more basic setup. Before USPSA separated the scoring system for Open and Limited (which I hated them for doing that BTW), the only thing I looked at on the results page was my percentage compared to Open class.

Yea, there may be some of that going on between L10 and Limited class, but I don't think it's as prevalent because many shoot L10 because they don't want to compete in Limited class. (I compteted in Limited class because I didn't like road Open guns went down.)

So from my particularly narrow-minded point of view (principles, not manufacturers), it makes sense to have Open-style matches, where you'd have Open and Limited competing on the same C'sOF with the same holsters/mag pouches. Then have Stock-style matches, where the founding guns (SS's) could compete amongst themselves with sensible hosters and magazine capacities reflecting the useful capacity of those guns (8 rds in the gun); shooting along side (although in a different class) current production-type guns reflecting their typical mag capacity (10 rds in the gun) - both with the same holster/mag pouch rules, on C'sOF with a 6 or 8 round max per position rule.

I am advocating getting rid of the current L10 class completely? Well, I guess so, because I always thought shooting a SS in an Open-class style holster was silly, especially because you had to use a 10 rd mag to be competitive, (if you wanted to shoot a .45).

SS/45's are here to stay, but they've lost their home in USPSA. And by the way, I haven't competed with a SS 45 in so long I can't remember, but that doesn't mean those pistols don't hold a place in my heart, and in the soul of our sport itself.

be

[Ron Ankeny]

...but that doesn't mean those pistols don't hold a place in my heart, and in the soul of our sport itself.

Amen.

[tightloop]

Me too.....

[Sparky]

I started shooting this game in 1980 (got my first RO card in 1983) and back then it was Limited 8, heck it may have been Ltd 7, and eveyone shot SS 45's with 200 gr lead bullets with ww231 powder and 18 1/2 # recoil springs. However things changed as they most always do and the compensator was born and then the 38 Super became popular. And the rest is history. So here we are 25 years later talking about a Single Stack Division or Ltd 8 Division. I love this game.

[headshot]

Let's get the provisional rules drafted and give it a try. Let the market decide. I agree with be's comment about not having a place in our sport for the guns that gave birth to it. The free market works every time it's tried. Let's give it a chance and let the shooters decide. If the idea has merit, the 1911 SS division will survive. If not, we gave it a chance.

[Greg in VA]

Wow.........I might have to dust off my old .45

The reason I stopped shooting the run and gun stuff is because of the arms race, I could not keep up........

Greg

[Classic 1911]

I think it's really quite simple. USPSA needs to adopt a 1911 Single Stack Division. It's the right thing to do. It's USPSA's roots. It's IPSC's origins. No one will ever agree to adopting IDPA rules. Good. Adopt the rules of the Single Stack Society, which has IPSC rules as it's basis. It's a win - win situation. Hundreds of 1911 fans will come back to USPSA if they have a division they can compete in. Right now they're only competitive in Single Stack Classic Matches and IDPA. That does not mean that they are followers of IDPA's "tactical" mentality. No, Limited 10 is not an option. 10-round, non-flush fitting magazines in a SS 1911 are like brown loafers with a tuxedo.

By the way, I've brought CDP, ESP, and SSP shooters, who got into IDPA because they have a concealed permit, to IPSC matches. THEY LOVE IT. THEY THINK THE STAGES ARE FUN. The deal is, though, they want to compete with their carry gun and we need to make room for them. Production fits for SSP guys, but we need a 1911 Single Stack Divison for the CDP and ESP guys. That's where the die hard SS 1911 fans are.

[BBQ]

I like that idea of SS only division. Less variation and more straight forward!! There are still a lot of people buying 1911 out there.

For, there are so many big manufactures producing 1911 out there. If there's a division for SS, those manufactures might be sponsoring. When there's price money and sponsorship chances, some of the big dogs will jump in. Then the division looks good, more people will join in.

Isn't that how production attract more and more people? Low budget race division, but looks cool on TV.

I don't know much of the inner structure organization. As a ex-auto racer stand point. If there's money in the race, it will bring out the "best of the best" to join the series. Those "best of the best" will make things look exciting. When you see that on TV, you will think that is cool things to do. You want to be part of that too and start gearing up.

Just think about using your 1911 SS 45 to compete and win prices kind of make people exciting. Don't you think?

[Classic 1911]

BBQ makes an excellent point. You have to look no farther than the 11th Annual Single Stack Classic, that has become the Springfield Single Stack Classic. Springfield has thrown it's full support behind this match. The winner of each class will receive a new Springfield GI model. If you're shooting a Springfield when you win then you'll receive one of their high end models. If you win overall, or just come in second to Rob L., I think you get a custom shop model.

If USPSA wakes up and add a Single Stack 1911 Division, there's no reason no to expect to see other manufacturers to include maybe even Colt do the same.

[JT Johnson]

At least the GSSF folks know it's only a competition, with no real-world applicability at all.  Not saying we need a GSSF division, but why don't we market a little more to people that actually want to play a gun game?

A gun game/sport isn't cool. We need to market KILLING and TACTICS.

We need to add a throwing knife division too. NINJA!

[MikeFoley]

Grenade Division

[MarkS_A18138]

USPSA needs to take a long look at the SS division as something viable. I have noticed in Texas that we are seeing a lot of local SS match showing up. San Antonio is now having a big SS match every year! We had our first SS match this past year against some of our club member’s request (because I am the Prez and I wanted it) and still ended up having 26 shooters show up.(that’s a lot) The match was competeing against a big USPSA match only 2 hrs away. We are looking at having a bigger match this year!!!! Simple rules SS 9mm-45acp, 8 rounds total in the gun at the start of the buzzer and at this point we are allowing any holster. It’s going to take a grass roots movement to get them to move on it but I am not going to hold my breath on this one!!!!!!!

Hope to see this division in the future!!!

[gmshtr]

I think I still agree with Mr. Enos...mostly. SS division is a good idea. As long as USPSA gets rid of L10. I, personally, would like to see the mag capacity stay at 10 rounds, though. There are plenty of 10rd mags available out there for reasonable prices. The holster rule probably should be changed, but it's really no difference what kind of holster and/or pouch you draw out of. I'm just very leery of yet ANOTHER division to deal with. With the mag capacity limit gone, I just don't think L10 is AS necessary. One or the other...that's my $.02.

[Classic 1911]

I simply cannot agree, gmshtr. 10 round magazines in a 1911 are like brown loafers with a tuxedo. The Single Stack Division simply must adopt wholesale the rules of the 1911 Society's Single Stack Classic.

It is the 10 round magazine rule in Limited 10 that 1911 advocates abhor and that keeps them away from USPSA. Magazines must fit flush and must be single stack. Holsters must be practical with a capital P.

[Merlin Orr]

Let's get the provisional rules drafted and give it a try. Let the market decide. I agree with be's comment about not having a place in our sport for the guns that gave birth to it. The free market works every time it's tried. Let's give it a chance and let the shooters decide. If the idea has merit, the 1911 SS division will survive. If not, we gave it a chance.

Yes.

It's a big sandbox. There is room for all the kids.

[Guest Larry Cazes]

I simply cannot agree, gmshtr. 10 round magazines in a 1911 are like brown loafers with a tuxedo. The Single Stack Division simply must adopt wholesale the rules of the 1911 Society's Single Stack Classic.

It is the 10 round magazine rule in Limited 10 that 1911 advocates abhor and that keeps them away from USPSA. Magazines must fit flush and must be single stack. Holsters must be practical with a capital P.

IDPA already exists.......Why would we want to duplicate it? Boy, I didnt know that 1911 advocates dont shoot USPSA. You could have fooled me, our local USPSA matches are just packed with 1911s.

[Classic 1911]

No one is duplicating IDPA. The purpose is to give true 1911s (single stack originals not double stack variations) a competitive venue in USPSA with USPSA stages and rules.

If your matches are packed with single stack Colts, Springfields, Les Baers, Ed Browns, Wilson Combats, and other stock and custom 1911 A1s, you've got a great deal going on.

Here the matches are packed with STIs and SVIs. They have their place in Limited and Open Class.

What we want to do here is give traditional single stack 1911 A1 pistols a place in USPSA once again.

[MikeFoley]

Every time this comes up, I like the way it sounds. I see no drawback, but there are the dilution theories. Mag capacity would be fine for me either way, and if it brings more players to keep it 8, then sobeit.

[Loves2Shoot]

I simply cannot agree, gmshtr. 10 round magazines in a 1911 are like brown loafers with a tuxedo. The Single Stack Division simply must adopt wholesale the rules of the 1911 Society's Single Stack Classic.

It is the 10 round magazine rule in Limited 10 that 1911 advocates abhor and that keeps them away from USPSA. Magazines must fit flush and must be single stack. Holsters must be practical with a capital P.

Um, maybe I'm stating the obvious, but the 10 round rule SHOULD apply for no other reason than course design. Designing a course of fire that accomidates the variety of skill levels and equiptment is already tricky enough at times.

[BBQ]

I am shooting in the same area as Larry. He's right. There are a lot of SS shooters.

But here's the thing with 40 vs 45!! (personal experience)

Last fall, I was shooting a 40 SV in a local charity match in L-10. I won the " $1,000 SV money stage" by over 20% to second place.

This January, I dig out my Valtro 45 for L-10 and I only winning the match by only a couple percent.

Same guy with improved skills, but two different guns. What does it tell you?

With the current L-10 rule, it's very tough to use a 45 and be competitive. (See how Doug and Jeff finish in the Nationals, 2004)

We need to keep those SS guy having fun & winning something, in order to keep them comming back without buying new guns. (the same intent like production class)

Plus 45 bullet and supplies are not cheap! SS shooters need something to pay them off too!!