Broken Gun = Not an AD?

[kcobean]

On paper is what we have to work with. If his finger was on the trigger, or he put it over the berm, or he hit the ground <10' in front of him, he is a DQ. Not being a range lawyer, just reading the simple English in the book and following the rules.

What you feel like the rules should be is not what we have to rule on.

Very interesting and educational thread. I guess when it comes right down to it, we are allowed to have AD's, as long as they don't go in an unsafe direction or occur when moving (and not aiming at targets). We generally don't DQ people for a gun that doubles or triples either as long as the shots don't go in the defined unsafe directions.

I assume everyone present agreed that the shooter was standing stock still loading his gun, right?

As a mathematician, I tend to think of the loading process as a closed interval, including the endpoints, so that the exact moment the slide closes is still part of the loading process, and the very next quantum unit of time is NOT during the loading process. I think reasonable people could argue both sides of that, so a clarification that explicitly declares slam-fire or hammer follow as a non-dq (when not moving) would not be a bad idea imho.

Yes he was standing completely still when the AD occurred. His next action would have been to engage a target directly in front of him prior to moving.

And I agree...a clarification stating that a slam-fire or hammer-follow AD (that does not create or occur under conditions specified in other rules) is NOT a DQ offense is a good idea.

Edited November 12, 2014 by kcobean

[StealthyBlagga]

I must confess, the new definition of "reloading" in the current rule book caught me by surprise, and upon reflection is at the heart of the tortured logic that asserts that this clearly unintended discharge is not really an "Accidental Discharge". I went back and reviewed the various versions of USPSA and IPSC rules.

Current IPSC rules, and USPSA 2008 (blue book) rules, both contain the following definition:

"Reloading: The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm."

This older and simpler definition gives/gave range officials the ability to rein in one of the more common forms of unintentional discharge - a shot fired when slamming the mag home.

With the 2014 rules change, USPSA added the new verbiage regarding being "ready to fire". Perhaps someone on the BOD could explain the background to this apparently minor, but potentially far-reaching change. IMHO it sets a disconcerting precedent that gives tacit approval to reckless and unsafe gun handling practices (my opinion), apparently under the increasingly popular maxim "no harm, no foul".

Edited November 12, 2014 by StealthyBlagga

[EkuJustice]

I'm gonna agree with Gary it has specific examples of what is considered an AD. That is one thing thing that I have seen incorrectly called a lot as people generally call an AD any time you set one off when you don't intend to which would include breaking the shot early when moving the gun to a target etc when in fact it did not meet the definition of a AD in the rule book. It's the same as the reload there is a definition of what's considered a reload and when it's complete and in does not mention sights on the target.

Edited November 12, 2014 by EkuJustice

[ktm300]

This older and simpler definition gives/gave range officials the ability to rein in one of the more common forms of unintentional discharge - a shot fired when slamming the mag home.

The vast majority of these offences came with the finger on the trigger which is a DQ.

A lot of the ones where the gun malfunctions have the gun pointed in such a way that the shot goes over the berm, again a DQ.

I think the only one that changes is where the shooter is pointing the gun in a safe direction during the malfunction.

[StealthyBlagga]

This older and simpler definition gives/gave range officials the ability to rein in one of the more common forms of unintentional discharge - a shot fired when slamming the mag home.

The vast majority of these offences came with the finger on the trigger which is a DQ.

A lot of the ones where the gun malfunctions have the gun pointed in such a way that the shot goes over the berm, again a DQ.

I think the only one that changes is where the shooter is pointing the gun in a safe direction during the malfunction.

Yes, but often the RO is not in a good position to see that the finger is in the trigger guard (and, just as with any DQ call, I am a big believer in not calling it unless I am 100%). In the past a shot fired during a reload was considered de facto evidence that the finger must have been inside the trigger guard. Now the competitor can appeal that call on two grounds:

1) The reload was over when the shot was fired. Again, unless the RO is in a position to see the exact moment the magazine clicks into place, he cannot call it 100%.

2) The gun was broken. Back in the day when the broken gun alibi was still part of the rule book, I saw a couple of cases where a competitor was reinstated because some internal component showed evidence of wear or weakness, and so the benefit of the doubt went to the competitor even though it was not definitively proven to be the cause of the unintended discharge. In other words, this provision was open to abuse by wily competitors and sympathetic officials. My guess is that this is why this rule went away. Now it is back via the backdoor.

I am also troubled by the mindset that "if the shot does not go over the berm/go uprange/hit inside 10ft, an unintended discharge is OK". The problem with this position is that an unintended shot traveling in a "not-unsafe" direction does so only by luck - not because the shooter is in full control of his firearm. Moreover, I have been in more than one situation where an unintended shot was fired and yet I could not 100% make the call that the shot went over the berm, despite the strong suspicion that it did so.

We are running around with powerful weapons, shooting them fast over wide arcs of fire. This is fun, and what draws us to the sport, but it also has elevated potential to cause bodily harm or death without robust safety rules. My concern is that USPSA is in danger of allowing the pendulum to swing too far in favor of competitor enjoyment at the cost of safety for everyone else on the range and beyond. What other surprises can we expect to see as the pendulum continues to swing further in that direction?

Edited November 12, 2014 by StealthyBlagga

[frag316]

Is it correct that when the shot occurred the mag was fully inserted in the gun, the slide was closed into battery, and the shooter's finger was out of the trigger guard? And that the DQ was issued under 10.4.3 for a shot that occurred while "loading"?

How do you answer the shooter when he points out that the mag was fully seated and the gun was in battery when the shot occurred, and thus that loading was already complete the microsecond before the shot occurred?

Loading ............................"The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to

I see the point you're making. It could be argued either way: the loading process was complete and the AD was a separate action, or the AD occured *as* the gun was going into battery, which is part of the loading process.

I lean toward the latter myself, if for no other reason than it encourages competitors to ensure their firearm is in safe operating order before bring it to a match. The shooter in question stated that he'd had a similar occurence with the gun the day prior to the match and he still chose to bring it out and shoot it.

It can't be argued either way, If the gun went off it was by definition in battery.

"slide forward or cylinder closed and ready to fire"

So what rule are you going to use to DQ him? Yes I want people to show up with safe equipment but I also want to follow our rule book.

I'd say the moment the slide goes forward, if you are still holding the gun like you are reloading and you haven't got a firing grip or started to line up the sights with your eyes, you are still in the process of reloading and an AD at that point is a DQ.

The problem is that is not what the rule book says. It says loading is done when the gun goes into battery.

<<IMHO, for loading to be complete>>

I don't care about your opinion, I care about what the rule book says. If you want to add that to the definition of loading talk to NROI. As it is we have a definition and need to follow it. The rule book has lots of gray but that definition seems pretty black and white to me.

Unless the gun fired out of battery, which from the description it didn't, you can't use the 10.4 section to DQ the guy. By the definition in the rule book he was done loading. If the gun goes off at the same time as it goes into battery it is still in battery when the gun goes off.

You can wander into the 10.5 section and try and make something fit but I don't think you can use 10.4.

No argument the gun is not safe and needs to be removed from the match.

One thing I want to point out--claiming the gun was in battery because it went off is a false assumption. While I don't know if that was the case or not, a gun with malfunctioning parts can go off without the gun being in battery.

[kcobean]

Out of battery detonations are specifically excluded per 10.4.3.1

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[motosapiens]

I am also troubled by the mindset that "if the shot does not go over the berm/go uprange/hit inside 10ft, an unintended discharge is OK". The problem with this position is that an unintended shot traveling in a "not-unsafe" direction does so only by luck - not because the shooter is in full control of his firearm. Moreover, I have been in more than one situation where an unintended shot was fired and yet I could not 100% make the call that the shot went over the berm, despite the strong suspicion that it did so.

We are running around with powerful weapons, shooting them fast over wide arcs of fire. This is fun, and what draws us to the sport, but it also has elevated potential to cause bodily harm or death without robust safety rules. My concern is that USPSA is in danger of allowing the pendulum to swing too far in favor of competitor enjoyment at the cost of safety for everyone else on the range and beyond. What other surprises can we expect to see as the pendulum continues to swing further in that direction?

I was going to post something very similar to this. I share your concerns. This interpretation of the rules makes it seem like genuine AD's (not cooking a round off slightly early as you're prepping the trigger) are no big deal, and we shouldn't care about them unless they go over the berm or in another unsafe direction, which is somewhat a matter of luck. And as you say, it is not always easy to tell exactly where a shot went.

OTOH, I personally have never witnessed a slam-fire in 3 years of shooting a couple matches a month (and RO-ing 5 different majors), so perhaps it's not as grave a problem as it sounds.

[ktm300]

OTOH, I personally have never witnessed a slam-fire in 3 years of shooting a couple matches a month (and RO-ing 5 different majors), so perhaps it's not as grave a problem as it sounds.

I have seen one in 4 years. As an RO in major matches I have run well over a thousand shooters. Over 1200 just last month at the World Shoot.

He was making ready and when he dropped the slide, the hammer followed and the gun went off. Finger clearly out of the the trigger guard. The gun was pointed in a safe direction, in fact the bullet hit a target. I know him and he is very good about keeping his guns in good working order. In this case a new part failed.

[frag316]

Out of battery detonations are specifically excluded per 10.4.3.1

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm not arguing that, just pointing out that a gun can fire out of battery.

[frag316]

OTOH, I personally have never witnessed a slam-fire in 3 years of shooting a couple matches a month (and RO-ing 5 different majors), so perhaps it's not as grave a problem as it sounds.

I have seen one in 4 years. As an RO in major matches I have run well over a thousand shooters. Over 1200 just last month at the World Shoot.

He was making ready and when he dropped the slide, the hammer followed and the gun went off. Finger clearly out of the the trigger guard. The gun was pointed in a safe direction, in fact the bullet hit a target. I know him and he is very good about keeping his guns in good working order. In this case a new part failed.

I have seen only one, but it was at an outlaw gun match a couple of years ago. The competitor was making ready with his pistol and the gun went off when he stroked the slide. The guy running him cleared him, he went and got a new gun, then shot the CoF--yes, they gave him a reshoot.

[kcobean]

Here's my heartburn with the way these rules are structured. If you pick up a gun off a table, put in a mag, rack the slide and the gun fires into the dirt 20 feet in front of you, you're ok (that's the current discussion). However if you were to pick up the gun and begin moving to a shooting position 6 feet away while inserting the mag and racking the slide and the gun fired and the round hit in the exact same location, you'd be DQ'd because 10.4.6 makes no exception for a slam fire, it says that a shot that occurs while moving, except while actually shooting at targets. Why is one ok, the other is not? There should either be a specific clarification to say that slam-fires that do not violate 10.4.1 or 10.4.2 are allowed, or a clarification that says a shot fired while not engaging targets is a DQ.

Edited November 12, 2014 by kcobean

[Thomas H]

Since 10.4.3 (under Match Disqualification - Accidental Discharge) says:
"A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun. This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7."

But the definition of loading is:
"The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to fire."

and the definition of reloading is:
"The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm. The reload is not complete until the magazine/speed loader is fully inserted and the firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed and ready to fire)."

...it seems to me that we can never call a DQ for an AD during reloading or loading, as it is only a detonation if the gun goes over with the slide out of battery, and reloading and loading is complete when the slide is in battery. (And "ready to fire" is an amorphous, subjective statement.)

The rule itself doesn't specify any reason for said shot (gun going off due to mechanical issues, finger in the trigger guard, etc)---merely that the shot occurring is sufficient.

However, since only a broken gun can fire without the slide being in battery, this rule is just about useless.

That seems---exceedingly incorrect. We've all seen people who, upon slamming the magazine into the gun, lit one off. It should obviously be an AD for a shot fired while reloading. (Obviously they also had their finger on the trigger, but if the angle was such that the RO couldn't see it, they can't call it.)

...but according to this latest information, it couldn't be an AD while reloading, because the gun wouldn't have fired until it was in battery, so reloading was complete.

That seems completely wrong.

[ac4wordplay]

Since 10.4.3 (under Match Disqualification - Accidental Discharge) says:

"A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun. This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7."

But the definition of loading is:

"The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to fire."

and the definition of reloading is:

"The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm. The reload is not complete until the magazine/speed loader is fully inserted and the firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed and ready to fire)."

...it seems to me that we can never call a DQ for an AD during reloading or loading, as it is only a detonation if the gun goes over with the slide out of battery, and reloading and loading is complete when the slide is in battery. (And "ready to fire" is an amorphous, subjective statement.)

The rule itself doesn't specify any reason for said shot (gun going off due to mechanical issues, finger in the trigger guard, etc)---merely that the shot occurring is sufficient.

However, since only a broken gun can fire without the slide being in battery, this rule is just about useless.

That seems---exceedingly incorrect. We've all seen people who, upon slamming the magazine into the gun, lit one off. It should obviously be an AD for a shot fired while reloading. (Obviously they also had their finger on the trigger, but if the angle was such that the RO couldn't see it, they can't call it.)

...but according to this latest information, it couldn't be an AD while reloading, because the gun wouldn't have fired until it was in battery, so reloading was complete.

That seems completely wrong.

I agree with (almost) everything you state (see my post #40 in this thread).

My single point of disagreement is with your statement: "(And "ready to fire" is an amorphous, subjective statement.)" (see my post #47 in this thread)

"Ready to fire" must be the mechanical state of the trigger/disconnector/sear/hammer (or whatever fire-control-group the firearm uses) that allows the shooter the option to fire a shot by pressing the trigger, and the option to not fire a shot by not pressing the trigger. (Anything else would be nonsensical.)

Applied to the circumstance that started this thread: for the time period beginning at the moment of slide-lock (prior to the reload), and ending at the moment of discharge, the gun never achieved the mechanical condition of "ready to fire". (The gun's mechanics never provided the shooter with the option not to control whether a shot was fired - the mechanics skipped straight to 'fire without operator input'.)

As "ready to fire" is a requirement of the completion of USPSA rulebook definition of "reloading", and as that is what has (incorrectly) been used to bar/prohibit 10.4.3 application, realization of this should bring us back to applying 10.4.3 (for a shot fired while reloading - the reload wasn't complete because the gun wasn't "ready to fire").

Respectfully,

ac

[Gary Stevens]

Despite the fact that it did fire.

[ac4wordplay]

Despite the fact that it did fire.

Correct.

If we think in terms of "necessary" and "sufficient" conditions, we realize that option to fire a shot by pressing the trigger, and the option to not fire a shot by not pressing the trigger is a necessary and sufficient condition of "ready to fire". Both options are necessary, and neither (by itself) is sufficient.

Additionally, a shot being fired under the circumstances of this thread (which some think means that the gun was therefor ready to fire) is not proof that the requirements of "ready to fire" were satisfied. It's not uncommon to make this type of logical error.

Respectfully,

ac

[StealthyBlagga]

Let's plunge further down the rabbit hole: By the new definition of "reload", a competitor could now be DQ'd under 10.4.3 if they performed a reload but the magazine did not fully seat/latch in place. We have all seen the comical situation where an inadequately performed magazine change results in a single shot aimed at the target followed by the magazine falling out of the gun. Now, by the strict and literal reading of the rules some seem to be advocating, this common and clearly not-unsafe happening would require a DQ because the reload, as now defined, was not completed. Clearly this is an unintended consequence coming out of an apparently minor rule change that was not fully thought through.

We all know rule changes are going to happen as our sport evolves, and we should not be Luddite about such change, but safety-related rules should receive an elevated level of scrutiny before being changed. It is for the BOD and DNROI to be the vanguard against unintended consequences as those changes are implemented, and to issue clarifications/changes as necessary to maintain the right balance between participant enjoyment, competitive equity and range safety. We have well-established practices and norms that have stood the test of time and contributed to an enviable safety record - let's all do our best to keep it that way.

Edited November 12, 2014 by StealthyBlagga

[ac4wordplay]

Let's plunge further down the rabbit hole: By the new definition of "reload", a competitor could now be DQ'd under 10.4.3 if they performed a reload but the magazine did not fully seat/latch in place. We have all seen the comical situation where an inadequately performed magazine change results in a single shot aimed at the target followed by the magazine falling out of the gun. Now, by the strict and literal reading of the rules some seem to be advocating, this common and clearly not-unsafe happening would be require a DQ because the reload, as now defined, was not completed. Clearly this is an unintended consequence coming out of an apparently minor rule change that was not fully thought through.

We all know rule changes are going to happen as our sport evolves, and we should not be Luddite about such change. It is for the BOD and DNROI to be the vanguard against unintended consequences as those changes are implemented, and to issue clarifications/changes as necessary to maintain the right balance between participant enjoyment, competitive equity and range safety. We have well-established practices and norms that have stood the test of time and contributed to an enviable safety record - let's all do our best to keep it that way.

Yep, I was waiting to see if anyone would recognize this.

[mactiger]

OK, gents. Seems I made a mistake, and I hope we can all learn from it. One thing I learned is not to answer questions when I'm sitting in an airport without a rule book.

In answering the question, I wasn't thinking about the AD being on the make ready command. While there are some instances where the gun can go off and not technically qualify as an AD, this wasn't one of them, due to the wording in 10.4.3, which states..."This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7", which would cover the gun going off after the Make Ready command. So, in this instance, a match DQ would be the correct call to make, even though the gun was broken. As stated before, there is no "Robby"/broken gun rule. If it discharges, it's on the competitor. (Emphasis is mine)

That covers an AD, a shot fired while taking a sight picture, etc. Basically anything fired prior to holstering your gun and waiting for the Are You Ready command, and any shots fired after the If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster command is complete.

I believe this brings the RMI corps back into alignment on this issue--totally my fault for spacing out about the circumstances surrounding this issue.

Edited to add: Now the OP tells me that it was not on MR, but after the start signal. I either missed that originally or didn't have that information. At this point, I don't have a good answer to the question, because the gun firing was technically while loading, but I can see an argument for it being loaded (act of loading is complete and gun is in battery), and the shot not satisfying our definition of an AD. This will require some examination. I think most of us would stop the shooter and DQ under 10.4.3, because it's clearly not an intentional shot. I'm not sure that's covered in the rules as thoroughly as it needs to be. I think in this case, the competitor got a gift with the ribbon tied into a loophole. I'm going to work with the RMI corps to see what conclusion we can come up with.

Sorry for any confusion.

Edited November 12, 2014 by mactiger

[ktm300]

It was after the start signal.

From the original post

"At a match this weekend on a stage with an unloaded table start, a competitor (shooting an open gun) got the start signal, picked up his gun, inserted a mag, and when he racked the slide the gun went off, sending a round into the dirt about 20 feet in front of the table. "

OK, gents. Seems I made a mistake, and I hope we can all learn from it. One thing I learned is not to answer questions when I'm sitting in an airport without a rule book.

In answering the question, I wasn't thinking about the AD being on the make ready command. While there are some instances where the gun can go off and not technically qualify as an AD, this wasn't one of them, due to the wording in 10.4.3, which states..."This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7", which would cover the gun going off after the Make Ready command. So, in this instance, a match DQ would be the correct call to make, even though the gun was broken. As stated before, there is no "Robby"/broken gun rule. If it discharges, it's on the competitor. (Emphasis is mine)

That covers an AD, a shot fired while taking a sight picture, etc. Basically anything fired prior to holstering your gun and waiting for the Are You Ready command, and any shots fired after the If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster command is complete.

I believe this brings the RMI corps back into alignment on this issue--totally my fault for spacing out about the circumstances surrounding this issue.

Sorry for any confusion.

[motosapiens]

It was after the start signal.

lol, back down the rabbit hole we go.

[kcobean]

It was after the start signal.

From the original post

"At a match this weekend on a stage with an unloaded table start, a competitor (shooting an open gun) got the start signal, picked up his gun, inserted a mag, and when he racked the slide the gun went off, sending a round into the dirt about 20 feet in front of the table. "

OK, gents. Seems I made a mistake, and I hope we can all learn from it. One thing I learned is not to answer questions when I'm sitting in an airport without a rule book.

In answering the question, I wasn't thinking about the AD being on the make ready command. While there are some instances where the gun can go off and not technically qualify as an AD, this wasn't one of them, due to the wording in 10.4.3, which states..."This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7", which would cover the gun going off after the Make Ready command. So, in this instance, a match DQ would be the correct call to make, even though the gun was broken. As stated before, there is no "Robby"/broken gun rule. If it discharges, it's on the competitor. (Emphasis is mine)

That covers an AD, a shot fired while taking a sight picture, etc. Basically anything fired prior to holstering your gun and waiting for the Are You Ready command, and any shots fired after the If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster command is complete.

I believe this brings the RMI corps back into alignment on this issue--totally my fault for spacing out about the circumstances surrounding this issue.

Sorry for any confusion.

That's correct. The shooter was about 3 feet behind the table in the make ready position. He got the start signal, stepped forward to the table, picked up his gun, a mag, stuffed the mag in the gun, racked the slide and when the gun went in to battery it fired. So does your original input still stand? Was the shooter good to go or DQ'd?

[JAFO]

Edited to add: Now the OP tells me that it was not on MR, but after the start signal. I either missed that originally or didn't have that information. At this point, I don't have a good answer to the question, because the gun firing was technically while loading, but I can see an argument for it being loaded (act of loading is complete and gun is in battery), and the shot not satisfying our definition of an AD. This will require some examination. I think most of us would stop the shooter and DQ under 10.4.3, because it's clearly not an intentional shot. I'm not sure that's covered in the rules as thoroughly as it needs to be. I think in this case, the competitor got a gift with the ribbon tied into a loophole. I'm going to work with the RMI corps to see what conclusion we can come up with.

Thank you for taking this up with the RMI corps, Troy. It definitely doesn't make a lot of sense to say that an AD didn't occur a fraction of a second after seating a mag just because the slide is in battery.

[EkuJustice]

What about a planned shot that is set off the split second the mag locks in and hits the berm. We had a stage about 3 years back where it was a group of targets in a row where a reload was required after the first shot and before the last shot. If you had a limited/open gun you could run the whole run in one mag, and do the reload and fire one to not get your procedures and save time by not having to re-index on a target. If done fast with the gun low when seating the mag it looks like the gun was fired when reloading but when you unload and show clear it has a chambered round which shows the mag was seated. The alignment an use of sights is not required

[JAFO]

If they do it super fast and don't aim that shot into the berm, it would appear to an RO to be an AD during the reload. Especially since you should have your finger off the trigger during reloading. At what point do you believe they meant to do that vs issuing a DQ for 10.4.3? I've seen people do exactly what you're saying, but they aimed the last shot into the berm.

Edited November 13, 2014 by JAFO