kcobean Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 At a match this weekend on a stage with an unloaded table start, a competitor (shooting an open gun) got the start signal, picked up his gun, inserted a mag, and when he racked the slide the gun went off, sending a round into the dirt about 20 feet in front of the table. I stopped/DQ'd him under rule 10.4.3. The competitor insists that his finger wasn't on the trigger at the time of the AD and I don't think it was either. Afterwards, the RM asked to inspect the competitors gun. He went to the berm, inserted a mag, racked the slide and the gun fired multiple shots into the berm, so the gun was clearly unsafe and it was clear that the competitor did not pull the trigger to cause the discharge. The RM left for a bit and then came back and said that an AD that is a result of a verifiably broken gun is not in fact subject to 10.4.3. While he took a zero for the stage, the competitor was allowed to re-enter and complete the match with his backup gun. So my question is, is an AD that is verifiably the result of a broken gun subject to a DQ under 10.4.3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandbagger123 Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 I had something similar to this happen. Guys gun was doubling and tripling. I stopped him and we discussed it with the MD. He told me to let the guy use his backup gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcobean Posted November 10, 2014 Author Share Posted November 10, 2014 I can see that, if in the process of shooting at a target a gun doubled/tripled. This competitor was in the process of loading. He was clearly not engaging targets at the time of the occurrence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 (edited) The rulebook contains no exception for a broken gun. By 10.4.3 this sounds very much like an AD ( A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun. ). IMHO, should have been a match DQ. This is a very different situation than where a gun is doubling or tripling when the shooter is pulling the trigger while aiming at targets. I believe there *used to be* a broken gun alibi, but there isn't one now. Edited November 10, 2014 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottlep Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 I just took the NROI class this weekend with George Jones. This topic came up a few times. Based on those discussions, I believe it should have been a DQ. Shooter is always responsible for the gun....period....whether it was an AD caused by his finger or by malfunction. "10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun. This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7. " The only time the shooter wouldn't be responsible would be if he were clearing the gun and the round didn't eject and the round was detonated when the slide was closing "10.4.3.1 Exception – a detonation, which occurs while unloading a handgun, is not considered a shot or discharge subject to a match disqualification, however, Rule 5.1.6 may apply." "Detonation .......................Ignition of the primer of a round, other than by action of a firing pin, where the bullet does not pass through the barrel (e.g. when a slide is being manually retract- ed, when a round is dropped). " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmt Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 The rulebook contains no exception for a broken gun. By 10.4.3 this sounds very much like an AD ( A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun. ). IMHO, should have been a match DQ. This is a very different situation than where a gun is doubling or tripling when the shooter is pulling the trigger while aiming at targets. I believe there *used to be* a broken gun alibi, but there isn't one now. Correct. IPSC rule 10.4.8 & 10.4.8.1 cover broken or defective part of a firearm. USPSA rules do not have this exception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 Should be DQ. He may have been thinking of a detonation under 10.4.3.1 but if the firing pin set it off and it passed through the barrel, it's a shot during loading and that falls under 10.4.3. The other argument I could see here is that he was thinking that the loading/reloading process was complete with the insertion of the magazine and racking the slide was a function that caused a broken firearm to fire a round. Not that I see it that way nor is it correct, just thinking of ways they may have interrupted the rule and made the call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuelie777 Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 I just took the NROI class this weekend with George Jones. This topic came up a few times. Based on those discussions, I believe it should have been a DQ. Shooter is always responsible for the gun....period....whether it was an AD caused by his finger or by malfunction. "10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun. This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7. " The only time the shooter wouldn't be responsible would be if he were clearing the gun and the round didn't eject and the round was detonated when the slide was closing "10.4.3.1 Exception – a detonation, which occurs while unloading a handgun, is not considered a shot or discharge subject to a match disqualification, however, Rule 5.1.6 may apply." "Detonation .......................Ignition of the primer of a round, other than by action of a firing pin, where the bullet does not pass through the barrel (e.g. when a slide is being manually retract- ed, when a round is dropped). " When I took the class from George Jones (a few years back) this was also covered. This would be designated a Match DQ based upon the above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nghthwk1911 Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 The original ruling, was a DQ as Kelly pointed out. And I wanted to be correct, so I called a NROI certified RM (former RMI) for clarification on this issue. after talking with some others who had worked matches as RM's. When presented with the details as clearly as I could put them together, I made the call based on the RM's feedback and direction. I will say after getting home and going through many piles of paper I found my RO class book, and all the reference to the "Riley" rules that WHERE in USPSA rulebook... and I was wrong to overturn the DQ, a Broken Gun is not an excuse for an AD, cut and Dry. I must apologize to the RO's working the stage, and the match staff and even the shooter. Not all calls are good calls, and I did what at the time I thought was correct at the expense of not backing the now determined correct call of RO's working the stage. I hope I am never in a position to have that happen again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 These things can certainly be a learning experience. The shooter should have just claimed he *did* have his finger on the trigger and he was done loading the gun. Then it wouldn't be an AD since it hit further than 10 feet away, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcobean Posted November 10, 2014 Author Share Posted November 10, 2014 Kevin, You owe NO apology to any of us. We are ALL learning as we go. We do what we think is right and this wasn't meant to be a "call out" thread in any way. I wanted to see if there was any past "case history" for such an occurrence or if we were in one of those "grey areas". The likelihood is that if you keep RMing, you'll end up in this position again. It is what it is. I'll CRO for you any day brother. It was a great match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkreutz Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 I certainly learn from threads like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 We all learn from threads like this...thank you for sharing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austex Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Is it correct that when the shot occurred the mag was fully inserted in the gun, the slide was closed into battery, and the shooter's finger was out of the trigger guard? And that the DQ was issued under 10.4.3 for a shot that occurred while "loading"? How do you answer the shooter when he points out that the mag was fully seated and the gun was in battery when the shot occurred, and thus that loading was already complete the microsecond before the shot occurred? Loading ............................"The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to fire." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 At a match this weekend on a stage with an unloaded table start, a competitor (shooting an open gun) got the start signal, picked up his gun, inserted a mag, and when he racked the slide the gun went off, sending a round into the dirt about 20 feet in front of the table. I stopped/DQ'd him under rule 10.4.3. OK I don't think 10.4.3 works. The gun was pretty clearly in battery when it went off so loading was finished. Here is the definition of Loading: "The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to fire." 10.4.2 doesn't work as the round was more than 10' out. 10.4.1 doesn't work as the round stayed in the range The RO stopped him for a DQ not a broken gun. I could make a pretty good argument that he gets to re-shoot after he either proves his gun safe or switches to a backup gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcobean Posted November 11, 2014 Author Share Posted November 11, 2014 Is it correct that when the shot occurred the mag was fully inserted in the gun, the slide was closed into battery, and the shooter's finger was out of the trigger guard? And that the DQ was issued under 10.4.3 for a shot that occurred while "loading"? How do you answer the shooter when he points out that the mag was fully seated and the gun was in battery when the shot occurred, and thus that loading was already complete the microsecond before the shot occurred? Loading ............................"The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to I see the point you're making. It could be argued either way: the loading process was complete and the AD was a separate action, or the AD occured *as* the gun was going into battery, which is part of the loading process. I lean toward the latter myself, if for no other reason than it encourages competitors to ensure their firearm is in safe operating order before bring it to a match. The shooter in question stated that he'd had a similar occurence with the gun the day prior to the match and he still chose to bring it out and shoot it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 (edited) "The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to fire." The gun was NOT ready to fire...it fired... Edited November 11, 2014 by racerba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Is it correct that when the shot occurred the mag was fully inserted in the gun, the slide was closed into battery, and the shooter's finger was out of the trigger guard? And that the DQ was issued under 10.4.3 for a shot that occurred while "loading"? How do you answer the shooter when he points out that the mag was fully seated and the gun was in battery when the shot occurred, and thus that loading was already complete the microsecond before the shot occurred? Loading ............................"The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to I see the point you're making. It could be argued either way: the loading process was complete and the AD was a separate action, or the AD occured *as* the gun was going into battery, which is part of the loading process. I lean toward the latter myself, if for no other reason than it encourages competitors to ensure their firearm is in safe operating order before bring it to a match. The shooter in question stated that he'd had a similar occurence with the gun the day prior to the match and he still chose to bring it out and shoot it. It can't be argued either way, If the gun went off it was by definition in battery. "slide forward or cylinder closed and ready to fire" So what rule are you going to use to DQ him? Yes I want people to show up with safe equipment but I also want to follow our rule book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Is it correct that when the shot occurred the mag was fully inserted in the gun, the slide was closed into battery, and the shooter's finger was out of the trigger guard? And that the DQ was issued under 10.4.3 for a shot that occurred while "loading"? How do you answer the shooter when he points out that the mag was fully seated and the gun was in battery when the shot occurred, and thus that loading was already complete the microsecond before the shot occurred? Loading ............................"The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to I see the point you're making. It could be argued either way: the loading process was complete and the AD was a separate action, or the AD occured *as* the gun was going into battery, which is part of the loading process. I lean toward the latter myself, if for no other reason than it encourages competitors to ensure their firearm is in safe operating order before bring it to a match. The shooter in question stated that he'd had a similar occurence with the gun the day prior to the match and he still chose to bring it out and shoot it. It can't be argued either way, If the gun went off it was by definition in battery. "slide forward or cylinder closed and ready to fire" So what rule are you going to use to DQ him? Yes I want people to show up with safe equipment but I also want to follow our rule book. Boundary conditions discussions are always fun. I'd say the moment the slide goes forward, if you are still holding the gun like you are reloading and you haven't got a firing grip or started to line up the sights with your eyes, you are still in the process of reloading and an AD at that point is a DQ. You can make range-lawyering arguments, but I think we can all agree that a gun that fires when you don't pull the trigger is extremely unsafe. Not that the examples in the rulebook are not intended to be an exclusive and complete list. IMHO, for loading to be complete, there has to be some discreet point in time where the ammunition is inserted, slide is in battery, and gun has not fired That point doesn't seem to exist in this case. I don't know if the firing pin was stuck or the hammer followed, but either way, primer ignition would occur simultaneously with the gun going into battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Is it correct that when the shot occurred the mag was fully inserted in the gun, the slide was closed into battery, and the shooter's finger was out of the trigger guard? And that the DQ was issued under 10.4.3 for a shot that occurred while "loading"? How do you answer the shooter when he points out that the mag was fully seated and the gun was in battery when the shot occurred, and thus that loading was already complete the microsecond before the shot occurred? Loading ............................"The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to I see the point you're making. It could be argued either way: the loading process was complete and the AD was a separate action, or the AD occured *as* the gun was going into battery, which is part of the loading process. I lean toward the latter myself, if for no other reason than it encourages competitors to ensure their firearm is in safe operating order before bring it to a match. The shooter in question stated that he'd had a similar occurence with the gun the day prior to the match and he still chose to bring it out and shoot it. It can't be argued either way, If the gun went off it was by definition in battery. "slide forward or cylinder closed and ready to fire" So what rule are you going to use to DQ him? Yes I want people to show up with safe equipment but I also want to follow our rule book. I'd say the moment the slide goes forward, if you are still holding the gun like you are reloading and you haven't got a firing grip or started to line up the sights with your eyes, you are still in the process of reloading and an AD at that point is a DQ. The problem is that is not what the rule book says. It says loading is done when the gun goes into battery. <<IMHO, for loading to be complete>> I don't care about your opinion, I care about what the rule book says. If you want to add that to the definition of loading talk to NROI. As it is we have a definition and need to follow it. The rule book has lots of gray but that definition seems pretty black and white to me. Unless the gun fired out of battery, which from the description it didn't, you can't use the 10.4 section to DQ the guy. By the definition in the rule book he was done loading. If the gun goes off at the same time as it goes into battery it is still in battery when the gun goes off. You can wander into the 10.5 section and try and make something fit but I don't think you can use 10.4. No argument the gun is not safe and needs to be removed from the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 At a match this weekend on a stage with an unloaded table start, a competitor (shooting an open gun) got the start signal, picked up his gun, inserted a mag, and when he racked the slide the gun went off, sending a round into the dirt about 20 feet in front of the table. I stopped/DQ'd him under rule 10.4.3. OK I don't think 10.4.3 works. The gun was pretty clearly in battery when it went off so loading was finished. Here is the definition of Loading: "The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to fire." 10.4.2 doesn't work as the round was more than 10' out. 10.4.1 doesn't work as the round stayed in the range The RO stopped him for a DQ not a broken gun. I could make a pretty good argument that he gets to re-shoot after he either proves his gun safe or switches to a backup gun. No reshoot for a broken gun..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 At a match this weekend on a stage with an unloaded table start, a competitor (shooting an open gun) got the start signal, picked up his gun, inserted a mag, and when he racked the slide the gun went off, sending a round into the dirt about 20 feet in front of the table. I stopped/DQ'd him under rule 10.4.3. OK I don't think 10.4.3 works. The gun was pretty clearly in battery when it went off so loading was finished. Here is the definition of Loading: "The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to fire." 10.4.2 doesn't work as the round was more than 10' out. 10.4.1 doesn't work as the round stayed in the range The RO stopped him for a DQ not a broken gun. I could make a pretty good argument that he gets to re-shoot after he either proves his gun safe or switches to a backup gun. No reshoot for a broken gun..... The RO stopped him for a DQ not using 5.7.7. The gun was unsafe so, if after he figures out it was not a DQ I guess he could use 5.7.7. and score the stage as shot if they did not reset, and they saved the time. Not much resetting to do as it was his first shot so as long as they saved the time they could score it as shot. If he was lucky and they did not save the time he gets a re-shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcobean Posted November 11, 2014 Author Share Posted November 11, 2014 Is it correct that when the shot occurred the mag was fully inserted in the gun, the slide was closed into battery, and the shooter's finger was out of the trigger guard? And that the DQ was issued under 10.4.3 for a shot that occurred while "loading"? How do you answer the shooter when he points out that the mag was fully seated and the gun was in battery when the shot occurred, and thus that loading was already complete the microsecond before the shot occurred? Loading ............................"The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to I see the point you're making. It could be argued either way: the loading process was complete and the AD was a separate action, or the AD occured *as* the gun was going into battery, which is part of the loading process. I lean toward the latter myself, if for no other reason than it encourages competitors to ensure their firearm is in safe operating order before bring it to a match. The shooter in question stated that he'd had a similar occurence with the gun the day prior to the match and he still chose to bring it out and shoot it. It can't be argued either way, If the gun went off it was by definition in battery. "slide forward or cylinder closed and ready to fire" So what rule are you going to use to DQ him? Yes I want people to show up with safe equipment but I also want to follow our rule book. I'd say the moment the slide goes forward, if you are still holding the gun like you are reloading and you haven't got a firing grip or started to line up the sights with your eyes, you are still in the process of reloading and an AD at that point is a DQ. The problem is that is not what the rule book says. It says loading is done when the gun goes into battery. <<IMHO, for loading to be complete>> I don't care about your opinion, I care about what the rule book says. If you want to add that to the definition of loading talk to NROI. As it is we have a definition and need to follow it. The rule book has lots of gray but that definition seems pretty black and white to me. Unless the gun fired out of battery, which from the description it didn't, you can't use the 10.4 section to DQ the guy. By the definition in the rule book he was done loading. If the gun goes off at the same time as it goes into battery it is still in battery when the gun goes off. You can wander into the 10.5 section and try and make something fit but I don't think you can use 10.4. No argument the gun is not safe and needs to be removed from the match. I fired off an email to the RMI/NROI instructor that taught both my RO and CRO class and presented him with the specific details listed in my OP. He agreed that a DQ per 10.4.3 was the correct call in this case (i.e. the shot fired during loading.) Circa 2008, there was a 'broken gun alibi' in the books, but it was removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Kevin, you did your best and made a call with collaboration of other experienced ROs, we can't fault you for that. At least you came forward. You're one of the best in my book! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 It can't be argued either way, If the gun went off it was by definition in battery. "slide forward or cylinder closed and ready to fire" So what rule are you going to use to DQ him? Yes I want people to show up with safe equipment but I also want to follow our rule book. See my post right before yours...the gun was not ready to fire - it fired...at no point was the gun ready to fire prior to the AD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now