Slide Mounted Optics?!

[Bob Hostetter]

Red dot sighting systems are not new, I can remember people trying the early Aimpoints in the late 1980's and the 1st micro red dot, the Tasco Firepoint, was available in the early 90's. While S&W is the 1st major factory to offer the mounting cut people have been using the them for close to 20 years on pistols.

It is my personal opinion that mounting them on carry/duty type pistols is a fad and one that will die off soon enough. Will there be people who continue to use them, sure. There are people who still shoot the 10mm and 9x23 but not enough to create a new division. The only thing I can see is IDPA is trying to replace all of the competitors who are moving away and S&W being a major supporter maybe help them move a line which isn't selling that well.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Bob Hostetter

[S-Hurt]

The police should all have these things now. It's just a budget problem that will cure it self as prices decline. For once let's get ahead of the curve and not fight progress.

You are right about this and law enforcement is making progress but its SLOW. Our local department made up of about 300 sworn officers took a look at a G21 and G41 (45 acp Glocks) this past month with a milled optics. Very nice ... quick. I think it would take some practice for us older LE's but this is the future and we should embrace the technology. With a past administration, the fear was officers would let the battery die or not regularly check the optic, but hell fire they are grown men who you've spent thousands of dollars training and you give thousands of dollars of equipment to. I think they are responsible enough to make sure their gun is in working order or they should be working somewhere else.

I have been on the range with shooters who are trying to line up the front / rear sight but their eye sight is so poor its almost comical at times to watch. My fear is in a few years I'll be one of those shooters who the new officers are laughing at trying to aline my sights!

I would like to see IDPA create more divisions and include a slide mounted optic division for my USPSA friends. For some of my open class friends, buying a slide mounted optic gun to shoot IDPA is no big deal to them plus it gives them more match opportunities.

[GmanCdp]

Yesterday I shot with a guy shooting a Sig P226X five with Burris Fastfire 3 on and was really really impressed. Used a regular holster and mag setup. He has 2 setup in 40 and 9mm..

[v1911]

I'm worried that this will be a SSP w/optic division.

Not that it would be a bad thing overall, but I prefer shooting 1911/2011 platforms. Worst case, I get my XDm milled for a MRD. Best case scenario, I get another top end built for my 2011.

[GOF]

I think there is enough interest in an optics division that it should certainly get a fair hearing. It would actually be interesting to compare match scores between optics and iron sights.

Action pistol shooting, in general, has had significant influence in established training, technique, equipment, that has transcended to LE & Military. It is a developer of more effective techniques in the art of pistol craft. I say... let that continue and bring in a IDPA optics division. Let's see what works on the clock and what doesn't.

[shotgunone]

As a new competitor in IDPA, I really hope that the optic's division takes off. I currently shoot SSP and ESP. I'm not sure how revolvers fit it here, maybe have an optics pistol and optics revolver class.

There are a lot of companies that install optics on carry guns. Lone Wolf sells their glock slides milled for red dot sights. So changing top ends and using the same frame is something you can do now.

I am looking forward to the possibility of some new and different style of shooting in IDPA. I just hope they don't kill it with rules.

Edited November 12, 2014 by shotgunone

[Sidewinder6]

I understand the optics don't hold their zero reliably enough for wider acceptance. People in the decision making process have been waiting for the manufacturers to resolve their 'previously unknown' issues. They are spinning in the mean time.

But it is simply a matter of time before they reach that point. Maybe wider use in visible markets will inspire them since the other side of that will be all the complaints going viral.

I am reminded of the EOTech battery problems that were spun as user errors for years while they redesigned their product.

Now they are good.

[BritinUSA]

I've been using a DeltaPoint slide-ride on my XDM 5.25 for months, no loss of zero so far.

Any product will suffer from failures at some point, using these sights in competition is the best way to stress-test them. Every failure will provide the manufacturer with more information to improve their products.

[GOF]

If there is a 'demand for a product', why not offer the product? I can see how a carry optics division would be popular with shooters. Why not do it? I doubt if I would participate (except maybe for a laser sight on an indoor range match) but I would certainly welcome shooters to compete in that division.

Action pistol shooting has been a significant instructional force in both technique and equipment that has transferred to LE & military training & equipment. That's a good thing. Let it be a laboratory for what works and does not work under stress conditions.

[Jim Watson]

I saw a couple of slide mounted optics last weekend at a club man-on-man steel match. (You know, with the overlapping Pepper Poppers.)

I think those guys' main game is three gun and those likely to be their pistols for the all-optics divisions.

[Rob Tompkins]

As a local MD who's match attendance has stagnated I will welcome any new Division that reenergizes the sport. Personally I suspect the proposed Compact Divion would be attractive to the IDPA shooter and the Optics Division would be attractive to the IDPA shooter. I'd be ok with both but if its only one, I hope its the one with appeal to those that will come out and play.

[GOF]

I can appreciate stagnated match attendance. The vast majority of IDPA shooting takes place at existing clubs, with club members that don't shoot those matches. On "match day' those range facilities are closed to non-competing members. There is some complaining about that, from members who don't shoot those matches, and are then denied the use of their membership facilities for that time period.

BTDT. I paid about $400 to join a club, with annual dues required yearly. I do shoot their IDPA matches (CSO) but I can understand the frustration of other dues paying members who, on that Saturday/Sunday, can't use those ranges that are being used for the IDPA match. The only way clubs can justify and explain to their members that the 'range closures' are good is to point to the money that those matches inject into the club coffers... which buy new equipment and keep member's annual dues down. It's a business decision that most club members can accept.

If participation in those matches drops off to the point where the 'cash inflow' falters significantly, the club members denied the use of those range facilities have a legitimate beef. Anything that can be done to boost participation at those club matches is a positive for IDPA, because if participation drops to the point where the club says it's not worth the inconvenience to their dues paying members.... well, IDPA lost yet another club.... and most of the shooters in those local matches that paid their annual $40 dues to IDPA.

If the Optics and CCP divisions become reality, they might well increase IDPA participation and make the club's job of explaining the range closures to their members easier.

Just a thought... but small clubs are the life blood of IDPA, and I would think they would want to retain as many as possible.

[Brooke]

"I understand the optics don't hold their zero reliably enough for wider acceptance. People in the decision making process have been waiting for the manufacturers to resolve their 'previously unknown' issues. They are spinning in the mean time."

​My Trijicon RM02 was super easy to zero. It is used at least 4 days a week and has not needed any zero adjustment for 11 months. In contrast, my Dawson iron sights on my G34 never seem to be just right (which is really my biorhythms I guess) and the fiber optic rod has unexpectedly dropped twice in the last year. I guess the Trijicon knows my mood and adjusts itself

[Sidewinder6]

Your experience supports maybe they have that issue worked out. That's encouraging. And I agree about mechanical sights. They need attention too. So now we have to see what is allowed in competition.

Out of curiosity, how many rounds a week do you fire with the Rds ? Are you a heavy shooter?

Edited November 13, 2014 by Sidewinder6

[JerryShoots]

As a long time IDPA member and shooter I welcome the idea of ANY new division. Thanks to the lack of any "high overall" standing it doesn't really effect the SSP guy who has a budget friendly G17 straight from the box. I do wonder where the classifier lines will fall if the optic comes to IDPA. Will the master line be in the 80's or the 90's or will we see the first 70 second range line??? Personally I'm excited at the idea of the optic division. I have a little G29 that I would love to add a dot to and tenmillimerize the targets with.

It also occurs to me that the optic guns may have to fit the box. Could it be that with a barrel change my beloved and long reigning safe queen of a modified division IPSC gun could go to work once more? I think I'll dig it out and see if I have a barrel floating around that will work in it.

Not mine here but just a pic for those that don't know what a modified gun was...

[GOF]

If carry optics are created as a division it would seem logical for IDPA to give them the same 'box exemption' that they give revolvers.

Oops.... sorry. I committed a grammatical error by using IDPA and logic in the same sentence. My bad

[Brooke]

Your experience supports maybe they have that issue worked out. That's encouraging. And I agree about mechanical sights. They need attention too. So now we have to see what is allowed in competition.

Out of curiosity, how many rounds a week do you fire with the Rds ? Are you a heavy shooter?

I am a heavy shooter, I believe. I shoot about 600 rounds a week plus what is used in one or two IDPA matches depending on the week. Up until now most of that is with iron sights on a G34 with maybe 100 rounds on the red dot G17. It is actually my wife's gun and she puts about 300 a week through it.

Since the announcement of a potential optics division I have shot the red dot a lot more. I am limited on how good I can get with iron sights because of old age vision and a constant struggle with glasses that might, but don't help much. With the red dot I am way better. Like someone else brought up, it will be interesting to see how the classifier is adjusted for optics. For someone with my eye issues (that is a lot of people in IDPA) the classifier will be a lot easier. Both target acquisition time and accuracy get much better.

[GOF]

Given all that, why not give a carry optics division a try? Many IDPA shooters are in the 'over 40 range" where the normal aging of the eye begins deteriorating the elasticity of focus that allows closer objects - like handgun sights - to be brought into focus while still being able to view the targets. The NRA recognized this years ago when they accepted the facts that (1) many bullseye shooters were over 40 years of age and thinking of hanging it up because of the natural aging of the eyes, and (2) If we allow red dots they can continue to shoot. Smart decision. Red dots are legal in NRA Outdoor Pistol, and their membership suffered no significant losses.

Will the Berryville 'brain trust' be that smart? They haven't shown a lot so far, but the jury is still out. I recently had a long collaboration with a board certified Doctor of Optometry for one of my articles in Outdoor Life magazine, where natural eye aging issues were discussed and how corrective lenses can help "over 40" shooters still see iron sights. But, optics do it so much easier... although that was not a subject of that article.

I think a carry optics division would breath some life into IDPA. But, only if the Berryville "brain trust" is smart enough to see it. Like I said, the jury is still out on that

[JerryShoots]

I've thought for a long time that if someone has difficulty with their vision they should be allowed an optic. I have the hardest time teaching people who have trouble with their eyes since mine are quite good. This is the case especially with a few diabetic friends that have a helluva time with seeing contrast well.

I've also heard older ladies and gentlemen that shoot uspsa with us say that they have moved to open due to their eyesight. It makes sense to me that they should have been allowed an optic in other divisions a long time ago.

This IDPA offering opens the door for them. I for one know that one of my previously mentioned diabetic friends has agreed to start shooting IDPA with me next summer even if the division does not happen. He says he will just use an optic and not worry about the scores until they decide to make it an official division.

Regarding the box I think that requiring the gun to fit the box with an optic or some new box would be a good way to limit how far the division is taken. On the other hand I'm excited to see what creative people come up with if the rules are left loose enough to allow some invention. Either way it should be really neat.

Also I heard no mention of a compensator being allowed so recoil will remain a challenge. I bet that the scores between a good shooter with an optic and a good shooter without one will still be awful close.

[scooter doc]

My eyes are starting to give me fits, up close. I'm very interested in this class.

[shotgunone]

Seems like optics on handguns has been here a while. I think they are the future of the handgun and that means defensive weapon. They are the new sight system. We moved from no sights pistol in black powder, to a bead, to a rear sight / front sight and now optic. I had a extended eye relief scope on a revolver 25 years ago hunting deer. It's just progress and I'm game.

[Jim Watson]

We had a club steel shoot last month and there were optics in play. I concluded they were normally used in an all optics division of 3 Gun.

Why don't some of the optic proponents step up to shoot NFC with their glass and report their accomplishments?

[rowdyb]

what's funny is to go read the mega thread about produciton optics in the uspsa forum here. Goodness.....

My opinion is known, I say bring it on with my reasoning being that if one of THE most important things in a defensive scenario shooting your pistol is to hit the target and using a slide mounted optic makes this easier then I think it's a good thing.

Leave the "gun"rules the same (even weight), holster and belt and concealment rules the same; just remove the box requirement and allow optics slide mounted.

You'd still be drawing from concealment, you'd still be shooting from a postition of cover if available, you'd still be using tactical priority and sequence. It'd still be idpa. A certain gun doesn't make idpa (hear that wilson combat!!) but a certain style of shooting/cof does.

Edited November 21, 2014 by rowdyb

[bigdawgbeav]

what's funny is to go read the mega thread about produciton optics in the uspsa forum here. Goodness.....

My opinion is known, I say bring it on with my reasoning being that if one of THE most important things in a defensive scenario shooting your pistol is to hit the target and using a slide mounted optic makes this easier then I think it's a good thing.

Leave the "gun"rules the same (even weight), holster and belt and concealment rules the same; just remove the box requirement and allow optics slide mounted.

You'd still be drawing from concealment, you'd still be shooting from a postition of cover if available, you'd still be using tactical priority and sequence. It'd still be idpa. A certain gun doesn't make idpa (hear that wilson combat!!) but a certain style of shooting/cof does.

For which division? SSP or ESP?

We know that they won't do a CDP slide mounted optics because that might ugly up the Wilson 1911's.

Still interested in what they are going to come up with and as such, I'm waiting and saving.

[bikerburgess]

Why limit it to slide mounted? I understand that today, if you want to mount a small red dot and be able to use a conventional holster, that is the best solution, but it takes away the ability to try anything else that may result in a better system. just make the rules so you have to use a regular holster that covers the slide same as we have in the other divisions and see what shakes out, the more experimenting competition shooters do the better the equipment we will end up with for actual use.