dogtired Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Our club recently shot our first 3 gun match. We started small and had a "usual" crew. One of the other organizers and myself had shot a somewhat local match together, one that also was in its early stages of development. One of the things that bothered us on that shoot was: there were a lot of unknown shooters (their numbers had jumped from the teens to the 40's quickly) and some questionable gun handling, nothing blatantly unsafe but people handling a lot of unbagged guns. Too many to keep track of. We run a USPSA club, so used the USPSA multi gun rules for ours. We ordered in some Chamber Flags and required them for all guns (pistols excluded). One of the things we discovered, in trying to be time efficient, was you can not preload an 870 (no other examples) unless the chamber is closed. Should we skip preloading altogether? Skip 870's and pumps? Thoughts for next time are welcome... Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Just about any shotgun will need the bolt closed to preload. Just do it on a designated table pointed into the side berm, and then re-insert the chamber flag after the tube is loaded. jj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
co-exprs Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Yep. That's what we do at our match. Go to the preload table, remove the flag, preload the magazine and reinsert the flag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogtired Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 The autos will load with an unlocked bolt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zodiac Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I have seen 1/4"(could have been 3/16") yellow nylon rope with big knots on the end use as chamber flags in pumps. It allows the bolt to close on a empty chamber. I didn't really like the idea but it worked. Our matches have preload racks in a roped off area and after preload, its a match DQ to set foot in that area unless instructed by the RO. IMO, flags are not really needed at that point but rules are rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Donald Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I have a flag (Tapco) that I can just about fully close the bolt on. I close it & load with the bolt closed against the flag, that way everyone can tell there is no round in the chamber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug H. Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 (edited) USPSA MG Rules do not require preloaded shotguns to have flags so no problem with the 870. See 2.2.3.5 and 2.2.3.6.Doug Edited October 24, 2014 by Doug H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRider Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Like JJ and Mike said, just set up a table pointed into the berm, remove flag, preload the tube and re-insert the flag. It is done like this safely at many matches. Preloading tubes really helps a stage move faster and if done properly, does not in any way compromise safety. Hurley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
co-exprs Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 USPSA doesn't require chamber flags, but my range manager does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug H. Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 (edited) I think they are a good idea regardless of USPSA requirements. Doug Edited October 24, 2014 by Doug H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcloudy777 Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Chamber flags are the devil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FishnHuntIN Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I have one of the Plug'r flags for my 870, and you can load the mag with the flag inserted. It works best if you pull the slide back a little from the plug, but it is doable. I've also done it as discussed above, taking the flag out to load on a closed bolt and then re-inserting the flag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I agree with those that said load the tube then insert the flag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Don't use cord... Can melt in the chamber. Chamber View, Plug'r, Tapco. From $1 to $15, all types Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dauntedfuture Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I went to a SG match at a club in MD a while ago and the "safety enforcement" was so extreme it was almost unbearable. the worst part what that those "enforcing the rules" had no idea what they were doing. There is safe enough and then there is just silly, this was silly. Many clubs are reluctant to allow preloading because they don't have a cadre of experienced shooters to provide them guidance on how to run a safe and efficient match. I never understood why in some places it was muzzle up or down to carry but if it was in a bag you could wave the thing around all you like... I do suggest preloading all SGs and I have to close the bolt on my m2 to load the thing. After its full I can close the bolt on a flag or empty case as required. It is a good idea to have the table against a berm so people are not tempted to stand on the other side while people load...and many of us have seen this. For what its worth the #1 cause of malfunctions in AR-15 rifles years ago at Camp Perry was chamber flags. At the time you HAD to use the issued device and in an AR they would wedge themselves in the rifles, melt and otherwise cause issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 (edited) Hmmm, sounds like a bit of urban legend to me. A ten round string of fire will hardly get a big old match barrel hot enough to even be uncomfortable to hold, especially over a whole minute for the rapid fire strings. The thing I have always noticed about Service Rifle and Hi-Power is very seldom do these guys lube like an action shooter does....they don't have to, they only shoot 10 at a time! That and running ammo as hot as they can coupled with very tight chamber specs and you get malfs....probably not "Melts" On another note, if your bolt is cut with the out of battery loading cut you can load your M2 without having the bolt closed.....which is kind of why I came up with it...load out of battery. Edited October 24, 2014 by kurtm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcloudy777 Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Chamber flags in LOADED GUNS are even more the devil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dauntedfuture Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 In in 1995 I have to go to the AMU armorer van to get my chamber flag removed from my rifle. It was wedged on top of the bolt and inside of the charging handle. The upper is even marred from where the flag was pried out with pliers and a screw driver. Once, don't even ask me how, and to this day i'm not sure I removed a nice little melted disk of plastic from the face of my bolt that had melted on. I certainly lube all my rifles. It is true that unless your shooting the NTIT, your not shooting all that much at a time but rifles do get hot all the same from shooting and the sun. Regarding the SG, I suppose out of habit I have always closed the bolt to load, I never tried to load the M2 with the bolt all the way back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Verify shotgun is on safe, remove plugr, put in pocket, lower bolt into battery on an empty chamber by hand until 1/2" from closed, release bolt, load tube, remove plugr from pocket and reinsert. Place shotgun on table pointing into berm. Everything is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogtired Posted October 24, 2014 Author Share Posted October 24, 2014 (edited) Is that instruction specific to the 870? This "flag" is what I have for my AR, no melting or guessing... I can't see the devil in it. Edited October 24, 2014 by dogtired Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogtired Posted October 24, 2014 Author Share Posted October 24, 2014 (edited) "USPSA doesn't require chamber flags, but my range manager does." Actually they do...I included the whole thing to help... 2.2.3 Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their long guns: 2.2.3.1 Detachable magazines removed. 2.2.3.2 Competitors must use a chamber safety flag, or clear chamber device, that is easily visible externally to the gun when transporting from vehicles or stage to stage. Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made. 2.2.3.3 Unbagged long guns must be carried, shouldered or slung from the shoulder with the firearm reasonably vertical. Match Directors may require this to be "vertically upwards" or "vertically downwards" providing this is made clear to all competitors in a reasonable manner. 2.2.3.4 Long guns may be transported or stored without a slip or case, whether or not reasonably vertical, in a mobile rack or carrier as long as a chamber safety flag is used. 2.2.3.5 Transporting non preloaded long guns from the staging area to the start position and back from where the shooter unloads and shows clear, the gun must be carried muzzle vertically upwards with the bolt locked open or closed on a chamber safety flag. 2.2.3.6 Transporting a preloaded shotgun from the preload table to the start position the firearm must be carried directly to the start position with the muzzle vertically upwards. Another: 10.9 Long gun Staging Area 10.9.1 Each stage must provide a place for competitors to place their long guns. It may take the form of a rack or table or both. Tables must be oriented near a berm so that no one can walk in front of it. All firearms in the staging area must have their actions locked open or have chamber flags on a closed bolt or be cased. Edited October 24, 2014 by dogtired Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericm Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Chamber flags only serve to water down and confuse the "4 universal rules of firearms handling". If a person shooting a match cannot and will not follow the 4 rules, they are unfit to shoot the match and should be invited to leave. Is it OK to shove the muzzle of a chamber-flagged firearm into your friend's face? Is it OK to rest the muzzle of a chamber-flagged firearm on your foot? Is it OK to sweep the muzzle of a chamber-flagged firearm around the match parking area? ....so what is it that the chamber flag accomplishes? (besides the "I have this fluffy, bunny-cute shooter-gun that wouldn't harm a fly" syndrome) Well, at the shotgun-only matches I have attended, it adds about 30-60 seconds per shooter for stage turn around time... ........while accomplishing NOTHING in the way of safety RANT ericm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogtired Posted October 24, 2014 Author Share Posted October 24, 2014 (edited) Forgive me, I just took the RO class this weekend so finding rules is in the forefront. I think the flags make everyone else feel a little safer, not the shooter. Edited October 24, 2014 by dogtired Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcloudy777 Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Chamber flags only serve to water down and confuse the "4 universal rules of firearms handling". If a person shooting a match cannot and will not follow the 4 rules, they are unfit to shoot the match and should be invited to leave. Is it OK to shove the muzzle of a chamber-flagged firearm into your friend's face? Is it OK to rest the muzzle of a chamber-flagged firearm on your foot? Is it OK to sweep the muzzle of a chamber-flagged firearm around the match parking area? ....so what is it that the chamber flag accomplishes? (besides the "I have this fluffy, bunny-cute shooter-gun that wouldn't harm a fly" syndrome) Well, at the shotgun-only matches I have attended, it adds about 30-60 seconds per shooter for stage turn around time... ........while accomplishing NOTHING in the way of safety RANT ericm Hear! Hear! They also make for more handling of guns, which means the chances of something stupid is increased. Guns are safe when they are pointed in a safe direction, and when they aren't being screwed around with. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericm Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Forgive me, I just took the RO class this weekend so finding rules is in the forefront. I think the flags make everyone else feel a little safer, not the shooter. Sorry, NO! .....and not picking on you.... A chamber flag doesn't make me feel safer if the gun handler is acting like an idiot and violating one of the 4 basic rules.... ericm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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