CSEMARTIN Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 Just saw this on the news. A 78 yr old man was returning home. His plane landed, but he couldn't find his car. He spent five hours looking before someone decided to tell him that his car was impounded because his license expired while he was gone. Apparently, this pissed him off. I'm not sure how things went down from there, but he ended up getting hit with a taser and was subsequently subdued by three security guards. Did they really need to use the taser? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3quartertime Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 Not disagreeing with your post at all, BUT Gee I hope that when I'm 78 it takes three security guards and a tazer shot to take me down!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 78-yr old man needing 3 guards to be subdued? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 Have you taken a look at the average "security guard" lately? They were probably scared half to death. And he probably said something threatening like "why'd you punks tow my car?" Timid people should never be charged with authority, it only makes them rude! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSEMARTIN Posted January 24, 2005 Author Share Posted January 24, 2005 Of course TSA is saying that the guards were justified, but I can't see how it was necessary to use a taser on the guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sac Law Man Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Well none of us were there so we will never know. However, dont underestimate the ability of a determined no-good-doer regardless of age, size, or gender.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Tazering the guy might have resulted in less injury to him, rather than manhandling him. Think about it; you hit somebody with a tazer, they stop in their tracks and are unable to resist. If you try to physically manhandle someone who is resisting, you can expect cuts, bruises, and occasionally broken bones, particular if someone is older with weaker bones. Obviously, it probably wouldn't be hard for your average security guard to whip a 78-year old's ass...but it's a whole different story to try to subdue a 78-year old without causing him serious bodily harm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 And electric current running through a 78-year-old body is better for it than some bruises? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 300lb, Actually yes, it is much safer. The current interation of the law enforcement taser actually manipulates the currents frequency in a manner that results in only skeletal muscle being effected, it does not cause contractions in smooth muscle (heart, bowel, airways etc). There is no deleterious effects whatsoever to the electromechanical system of the heart, bowel, or nervous system. What this current taser causes is essentially a very strong body contraction for the duration of the electrical application. It is painful however, not harmful. After the incident I will bet dollars to doughnuts that the old gent was physically unharmed other than a little sore and pissed off. The other option of utilizing common hands on pain compliance techniques in effecting an arrest (wristlocks etc) on a 78 yr old in my experience results in far more injuries than what I have seen in tased patients. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Wonder if a case could be made to show that a taser is a potentially life threatening device for a 78 yr old guy...when I am 78 if someone tried to taser me I think I will shoot them....so am hoping I could get off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 when I am 78 if someone tried to taser me I think I will shoot them....so am hoping I could get off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glockster96 Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 300lb, Actually yes, it is much safer. The current interation of the law enforcement taser actually manipulates the currents frequency in a manner that results in only skeletal muscle being effected, it does not cause contractions in smooth muscle (heart, bowel, airways etc). There is no deleterious effects whatsoever to the electromechanical system of the heart, bowel, or nervous system. What this current taser causes is essentially a very strong body contraction for the duration of the electrical application. It is painful however, not harmful. After the incident I will bet dollars to doughnuts that the old gent was physically unharmed other than a little sore and pissed off. The other option of utilizing common hands on pain compliance techniques in effecting an arrest (wristlocks etc) on a 78 yr old in my experience results in far more injuries than what I have seen in tased patients. Craig, I would like to know how this works. Having a cursory knowledge () of the conduction system of the heart, I'm not sure how it is possible to not effect it when the skeletal muscle is effected. If we could figure out how to do that in reverse people wouldn't jump when defibrillated. (P.S. Cardiac muscle is not smooth.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 A surprising number of those BGs who kill cops are in their 60s and 70s. They've just had decades of practice at building up a serious mad-on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougCarden Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 Guys, it is this simple, as I sit here having been Tasered yesterday for only 2 sec, instead of 5sec., as it is set up for our Department training.... Tasers are considered the same level of Less lethal force as the baton and the Pepper spray that we use. Given the little information we have about the incident I would say that the if the use of force was reasonable and NECESSARY, then the Taser was the least option and was the right one to use. I will not get into the technical aspects of the medical knowledge, suffice it to say if there is a problem with it it will be borne out in the media first, then the court of popular opinion. I can say from first hand opinion I dont want to be tasered again. I saw myself along with some of the toughest human beings I know and trust reduced to quivering masses on the mat during the shock itself, it was unerving to say the least. After it was over we got right back up and were fine, with no ill effects. The main problem with Pepper Spray is that people with asthma, breathing problems can have problems induced by the panic and hysteria brought on with it. Given an older citizen that has to be hooked up lawfully, What is going to look proper in my community? Hitting him with a stick? I dont think so. I am not a dinosaur yet at my department, but the Taser is the best thing we have now to keep citizens and officers safe without injuries. Just my .02$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer-lock Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 At some point in my many training classes I have been punched, kicked, hair pulled, Gerber slapped, arm barred, speed cuffed, kubatoned?, gassed, sprayed and puked on. When they asked for volunteers to try the taser I gave it a pass. After seeing the results I take my refusal as validation that I do have some sense after all. There is considerable debate over whether or not the Taser is safe. It is certainly less lethal than a bullet and for that reason alone we should not exclude it as a take down method. Was it the method of choice in this case? Without video or first hand accounts I would not question the wisdom of the choice, a choice that was made very quickly during a highly charged confrontation. The number of guys it took to subdue the old fart is irrelevant. You might be surprised how much fight there is in any given individual. Enforcement folks of every stripe utilize two principles to win: team work and overwhelming numbers. Because of that, most folks go to the county jail instead of the morgue. geezer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 At some point in my many training classes I have been punched, kicked, hair pulled, Gerber slapped, arm barred, speed cuffed, kubatoned?, gassed, sprayed and puked on. When they asked for volunteers to try the taser I gave it a pass. This has always puzzled me. The theory I supposes is that if you have been "punched, kicked, hair pulled, Gerber slapped, arm barred, speed cuffed, kubatoned?, gassed, sprayed and puked on" in training you will somehow be better able to use the implement to which you have just been subjected in the course of restraining those who need it. Why don't the bureaucrats who come up with this apply the same logic to carrying a pistol? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 What happens if you have a pacemaker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glock-cop Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Tasers are great tools. A taser is better to use on someone than a hand or baton strike. People need to get rid of the notion that the Police are there to take hits from the bad guys. If an officer is performing a lawful duty and the suspect resists or becomes assaultive that action must be stopped. I have taken many a hit, kick, headbutt and spit in the face before I could get a suspect under control. Rarely do the suspects get charged with assault or resisting arrest. Or if they do, the prosecuters use that to deal and drop that charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sac Law Man Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Tasers are completely safe to use on people with pacemakers. The only people that seem to have adverse reactions to them are those taking psych meds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeInNePa Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Didn't I just read something in the paper the other day about Taser and bad side effects? Yep I'm sure I read something about , well, bad things happening. But of course, everyone knows that Tasers are harmless... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer-lock Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 At some point in my many training classes I have been punched, kicked, hair pulled, Gerber slapped, arm barred, speed cuffed, kubatoned?, gassed, sprayed and puked on. When they asked for volunteers to try the taser I gave it a pass. This has always puzzled me. The theory I supposes is that if you have been "punched, kicked, hair pulled, Gerber slapped, arm barred, speed cuffed, kubatoned?, gassed, sprayed and puked on" in training you will somehow be better able to use the implement to which you have just been subjected in the course of restraining those who need it. Why don't the bureaucrats who come up with this apply the same logic to carrying a pistol? Thankfully no bureaucrats came up with this training method. Every arrest and control tactic I have ever learned or taught requires repeated rolling around in the dirt with another student. Usually a requirement for graduation is that you take down the instructor. And yes you will be better able to use the implement because you have trained with it repeatedly. This sort of things also applies to defensive tactics training. It doesn’t matter if it is Judo, Jujitsu, Karate, or Sumo wrestling you learn by getting knocked around or knocking other people around. We don’t apply this logic to carrying a pistol because it would quickly reduce our class size by half. geezer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 Didn't I just read something in the paper the other day about Taser and bad side effects? Yep I'm sure I read something about , well, bad things happening. But of course, everyone knows that Tasers are harmless... Yeah, but you also probably read that guns cause crime too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 i work in a county jail, and often its the older men who cause the problems. Age doesnt seem to be something to keep me from using the minimum amount of force necessary. I can stand up and tell anyone that i would rather take two hits off a taser than get sprayed with OC spray. OC is much nastier and takes a while for you to completely decontaminate. when it comes down to either risk personal injury, or tase the guy, im gonna take the lower risk road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmshtr Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 The only issue thus far has been an adverse reaction to certain types of OC/pepper spray. Some are alcohol based, which can catch on fire when introduced to spark. That issue has supposedly been taken care of, though. To my knowledge, the taser has been 100% effective when administered properly. The only method that has been attempted to make them fail is to roll around, attempting to dislodge the barbs. This is rarely effective, but has happened. In all cases, the officer just reloaded the charge, and hit them again. I wish this had been available during my first years as a cop. OC had about a 50% success rate in my experiences. Trust me, tasers have brought injury statistics down on EVERY department that has used them...injuries to officers, more importantly. Unfortunately, it'll take one complaint about an old person, young person, female, etc, getting hit to take them off of the dept's issue list. Then it'll be back to beating the crap out of each other...because that's much more humane! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Did you guys see the link to a video clip that somebody posted around here somewhere? It showed a DUI guy getting the taser...after he took his traffic stop in the wrong direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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