kdj Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Idle curiosity since I only shoot Open and Production: If L-10 was made into L-8, would that achieve most of the positives that both sides are striving for? Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Kevin, L-8 with Produciton type gear or Limited gear? I think SS is more like Production gear. It seems closer to allowing SA into production, but with 8 rounds.. I think we should leave everything like it is, and add this new Provisional dicisoin, try it for a little while, then in 12 months we can re-evaluate... I think SS would go over well at some close by clubs (thinking Yolo here), there's more Single Stacks there then anywhere else I've been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sargenv Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 At the last match, I shot Limited 10 minor with my 9mm LDA. I shot pretty much all my production gear and had I not blown one stage, I would have scored at the higher end of the pack of all the other 1911 45 acp major shooters. You can be just as competitive with that kind of gear as you can be with a 1911 shooting limited 10 and race type holsters. It's the person behind the trigger, not all that gear that makes the A's. I shoot C production, but B Limited 10 (with my full race limited gun in major usually). I basically zero'ed a stage after not reading the description. It was Virginia count and three strings. Stupid me took extra shots, had extra hits, and um, held the gun freestyle when it mandated strong hand.. I think I got 100 penalty points and only scored like 86 regular points Aw well. I got a good classifier out of the match. My point is, that even handicapping myself like I did against guys shooting major caliber guns and regular gear I was still able to keep up with them. I think the divisions should stay as they are. I don't much care for all the specific specializing going on. 5 divisions is plenty. Vince Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoNsTeR Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Until they show up and get their butt kicked by a GM or M shooting a downloaded SV or STI in full race gear... I'm sick of these statements. Show me one M/GM shooter who ACTUALLY DOES THIS AT CLUB MATCHES. Better yet, explain how this is any different from someone showing up with a G35, entering Limited, and getting their butt kicked by a GM or M shooting a fully loaded SV or STI in full race gear. Of all the qualms folks have with L10, this the most ludicrous. It is simply a fantasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sargenv Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 I think it's fun however when the occasional rare shooter comes along shooting a G35 or some other variant of a carry gun and places in the top 10 of a 50 competitor match. People comment where did THAT guy come from? And then ask the competitor, "You're not from around here are you? Where did you learn to shoot like that?". It doesn't happen too often, but it happens... Vince Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 sure it was the shooter that won, not the equipment, but the perception is that to be that good, you must need all of that high dollar equipment. Right. So, the problem isn't the equipment. The problem is the perception. THAT is what peple need to work on. I've worked on it with my new shooters. With great success, IMO. Some might call that marketing (at the grass-roots level). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 The problem is the perception Absolutely! Couldn't agree more. The image and marketing of USPSA needs to improve. The current divisions and rules need stability, not change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 sure it was the shooter that won, not the equipment, but the perception is that to be that good, you must need all of that high dollar equipment. Right. So, the problem isn't the equipment. The problem is the perception. THAT is what peple need to work on. as soon as they see the guys using their downloaded Limited rigs, there's going to be a perceived equipment deficiency. If you want to tell them that they're wrong about the deficiency before they're even in the door, please go find another shooting sport to be an ambassador of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GmanCdp Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 oops ...so is it wrong to shoot a SS 45acp in limited 10???by no means am i any kind of master shooter.....but i shoot the local USPSA matches with 8 rnd mags and 1 10 rnder and still do pretty dang good...just ordered 6 new 10 rnd wilson mags today... ....just use my IDPA setup and was thinking on gettin a different holster to statr shootin USPSA...but i am left handed...any suggestions??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omnia1911 Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 oops ...so is it wrong to shoot a SS 45acp in limited 10???by no means am i any kind of master shooter.....but i shoot the local USPSA matches with 8 rnd mags and 1 10 rnder and still do pretty dang good...just ordered 6 new 10 rnd wilson mags today... ....just use my IDPA setup and was thinking on gettin a different holster to statr shootin USPSA...but i am left handed...any suggestions??? Left handed???? Would you like your own division? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chp5 Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Sorry to butt in on this, but I have a question.Is it possible to win L-10/make GM in L-10 with a gun and rig that meets all the proposed requirements for the Provisional division (given that you can use 10 round mags)? Yes. I agree. It's possible, but not probable, at least at the bigger matches. I really think that changing L10 to a single stack division will be a magnet for new shooters to our sport - which is a very good thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 . ....just use my IDPA setup and was thinking on gettin a different holster to statr shootin USPSA...but i am left handed...any suggestions??? Most of the "race"holsters are legal and available in LH Your IDPA stuff is probably fine and requires no "learning curve" A Safariland, CR Speed, Etc. would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Sorry to butt in on this, but I have a question.Is it possible to win L-10/make GM in L-10 with a gun and rig that meets all the proposed requirements for the Provisional division (given that you can use 10 round mags)? Yes. I agree. It's possible, but not probable, at least at the bigger matches. Bigger matches? What is the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chp5 Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Sorry to butt in on this, but I have a question.Is it possible to win L-10/make GM in L-10 with a gun and rig that meets all the proposed requirements for the Provisional division (given that you can use 10 round mags)? Yes. I agree. It's possible, but not probable, at least at the bigger matches. Bigger matches? What is the difference? Flex, If my memory serves me right, I beleive all or most of the L10 winners at the State and Area matches I've been to were shooting S_I's. That's my point. Bottom line is that reloading is a huge part of L-10 (and Prod) and it's a real advantage in reloading to have a fat gun. Sure - there are some poeple that can reload a single stack as fast as a fat gun, but they're the exception. You may disagree, but remember that you made GM in LTD with a Glock with no magwell. Accordingly - YOU are one of those exceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Bottom line is that reloading is a huge part of L-10 (and Prod) and it's a real advantage in reloading to have a fat gun. Sure - there are some poeple that can reload a single stack as fast as a fat gun, but they're the exception. Do you think that these exceptional people could reload their Fat guns even faster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopalong Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Hi, GmanCdp.... Welcome to the Forums..... See you Sunday at the steel match..... Bring Warm Clothes...... NOW back to the original programing.... I have been thinking of shooting my Wheelgun in L-10 because no one comes and plays in Wheelgun division with me so this BS about fat guns being faster than SS guns can stop any time. FACT: a 1.25 reload with a fat gun vs. a 1.40 reload with a Skinny gun is NOT where matches are won.... Matches are won figuring out the fastest way through the stage, Point A to point B, NOT hitting any NO-shoots and not dropping many points if any!!!! Does there need to be a SS division? Don't know let Gary and Rob and the BoD try the "provisional Division" for a year, keep the rules simple no race type holsters 8 rnd mags (all calibers) and go from there. After a year of that then they can try OPEN -8 for a year, I have been hearing that for a while too, then the 8 shot round guns can come play too. Just my .02 cents worth. Hopalong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chp5 Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 FACT: a 1.25 reload with a fat gun vs. a 1.40 reload with a Skinny gun is NOT where matches are won.... Matches are won figuring out the fastest way through the stage, Point A to point B, NOT hitting any NO-shoots and not dropping many points if any!!!! True. However if you have two shooters of the same skill shooting the stage the same way with three reloads - then it does make a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZ Posted January 22, 2005 Author Share Posted January 22, 2005 If my memory serves me right, I beleive all or most of the L10 winners at the State and Area matches I've been to were shooting S_I's. That's my point. I think that's probably for one of two reasons (which is really only one reason). (1)Either those shooters are more experienced shooters and have been shooting Limited for quite some time and decided for whatever reason to shoot L10 for that particular match...or (2) many of the single stackers may be somewhat newer shooters and aren't as skilled as those that happened to be shooting widebody guns on that particular day....the commonality between the two....shooting skill! If I'm shooting a single stack gun against widebody guns and get beat by them...its not because their gun has a bigger magwell than mine...its because they shot better than I did. Do you think that these exceptional people could reload their Fat guns even faster? If they are...its probably not because they're shooting fat guns...its probably because they are "exceptional" people....aka more skilled at reloading/shooting. I honestly don't believe there is any difference between widebody and skinny guns when it comes to reloads....sure it takes a bit more skill and practice with a skinny gun (and the disaster factor with a skinny gun is obviously higher)...but if you hit the mag hole on either just right...the time will be the same between the two....single stackers just have to realize they have to PRACTICE more at this than their fat gun counterparts. And I know it can be done! There was a speed shoot stage at Area 1 that had 4 ports...the L10 guys had to reload between the ports...the stage was won by a single stacker over S_I widebody guns...there was no room for error reloading...and the reloading was on the move. There was another stage at Area 1 sponsored by S_I...it was won by yet a different single shooter who smoked EVERYONE else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 I honestly don't believe there is any difference between widebody and skinny guns when it comes to reloads....sure it takes a bit more skill and practice with a skinny gun (and the disaster factor with a skinny gun is obviously higher)...but if you hit the mag hole on either just right...the time will be the same between the two....single stackers just have to realize they have to PRACTICE more at this than their fat gun counterparts. You state there is no difference, then list a huge one! At a given level of practice, the widebodies are easier to reload. Maybe the speed is the same, but the bobble factor is higher with a smaller hole to hit. I recently watched a shooting show where Todd Jarrett bobbled a reload on a production gun that he was smoking home on a limited gun. Yes the difference between the two diminishes with skill and practice, but give a C class shooter a widebody and a SS and lets see what they reload faster. I've yet to do a sub 2 second draw, 1, reload, 1 with a SS. I have done it with some regularity with my limited gun. I don't think the draw is any different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 I honestly don't believe there is any difference between widebody and skinny guns when it comes to reloads....sure it takes a bit more skill and practice with a skinny gun (and the disaster factor with a skinny gun is obviously higher)...but if you hit the mag hole on either just right...the time will be the same between the two....single stackers just have to realize they have to PRACTICE more at this than their fat gun counterparts. Exactly. That's why I asked this question: Do you think that these exceptional people could reload their Fat guns even faster? I think in this case, a guy shooting a single stack (or a Glock without a magwell like Kyle) should work harder to get to 1.0s reloads than a guy with a fat gun. But that's it. He has to put in more work initially. It's kind of like manual vs. automatic gears. Takes longer to learn with manual, but it isn't any slower once you get the hang of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZ Posted January 22, 2005 Author Share Posted January 22, 2005 You state there is no difference, then list a huge one! Ok...well just to be more clear...yes it is easier to reload a widebody gun....but once the reloading skill is mastered by any serious competitor...the difference between the two is diminished to the level of insignificance. If someone is serious about competiting...they will do EVERYTHING they can to refine their skills. If they aren't willing to devote the time...then they really aren't all that serious about winning....and if they're not serious about winning....they shouldn't be complaining when they lose. Spook: sorry...I misunderstood what you were saying...looks like we're on the page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 I've yet to do a sub 2 second draw, 1, reload, 1 with a SS I bet if you throw all your guns in the safe and prctice with a SS exclusively for an hour a day, you'll be able to do that in less than a month If someone is serious about competiting...they will do EVERYTHING they can to refine their skills. If they aren't willing to devote the time...then they really aren't all that serious about winning....and if they're not serious about winning....they shouldn't be complaining when they lose. Damn Steven, that is good stuff. I'd like to add something. Can anyone name a GM in Lim-10 or limited, that could not have made GM in Lim-10 with SS gun if he put in the same amount of work ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopalong Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Cy, I you have 2 guys at the same skill level shooting ss vs. ds then if they truly are at the same skill level the size of the mags don't matter as they both will be able to do the same speed of reloads. Let Gary and Rob and the BoD try this out for a year, if it obviously brings in more shooters and had good participation, make it permanent. If not get rid of it. Plain and simple. Then the next year try OPEN - 8 or even 10 or try Open Revolver, Autos have their Open Division why not revos? But an Open 8 would give both the SS guys/gals somewhere to shoot their red dot guns AND the 8 shot revolvers too. And as far as fast reloads go how about SPOOK???? seems like he had a 1.29 with one of them there REVOLVERS !!!!!! the key words here are PRACTICE and WANT TO !!!! Hopalong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 True. However if you have two shooters of the same skill shooting the stage the same way with three reloads - then it does make a difference. I just flat out don't buy that at all. Sorry. I refuse to believe in the equipment crutch. A good reload is a good reload. The problem, as I see it, is that we have a lot of shooters that just don't practice. They top out at a certain level. And, that is that. So, the reasons start coming out. Look at this forum...see where the questions come. ...what shoes do you wear? ...what holster is best? ...what powder...bullet weight...caliber...spring...sights... on and on and on and on... Many shooters spend their time stuck on those type of questions...looking externally for the next bit of improvement. Once you get to a certain level of functionality (gun works, hits where it is aimed), all that other "external" stuff likely adds up to about 5% or so of performance. Yet, sooo many spend the majority of their time buried in this 5%. I know how little the equipment matters. I know that it doesn't matter if I swing an Eastwing hammer or a Craftsman special...unless I hit the nail on the head...it is not going to get driven into the board. We need to steer the focus...the marketing...toward shooting. Solving the shooting problem is what we are about. Expanding the divisions does the exact opposite. It puts the focus on external factors...not internal problem solving. We grow internally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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