BigLucky Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 So I am looking for a couple of things. 1st. What is everyone's opinion of doing half day formats vs alternating squad formats? Is there a good way to do 10 stages in 3 days, and get done at a reasonable time on Sunday with results and prize table, in a half day format? 2nd. Does anyone have a shooters schedule that has worked for half day format matches with 4 stages Friday and Saturday and 2 stages Sunday? I would think that half days would be nice because you get half a day each day to do things when you are somewhere that there are things to do/see like the beautiful Texas Hill Country. Thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not4you2know Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Area 6 did half day format. 10 stages in 3 days would drag the match out too long in my opinion. 10 stages in 2 days would be an easy half day format. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug H. Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 (edited) The only place I like alternating squad schedules is at a match with long distances between stages like Rocky Mountain. 1/2 format matches work good in places that have high temps and something to do when not shooting like Vegas or Bend. We've done a 1/2 day format for the last few years at the Northwest Multigun Challenge. Last year we did a 3AM-4PM on Thursday and Friday then 2AM-2PM for a total of 9 stages. People seem to like it, more sign up for the match every year. Based on customer feedback, next year we will do 4AM-3PM so that the afternoon shooters don't have to be in the sun as long. Doug Edited September 15, 2014 by Doug H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigLucky Posted September 15, 2014 Author Share Posted September 15, 2014 Area 6 did half day format. 10 stages in 3 days would drag the match out too long in my opinion. 10 stages in 2 days would be an easy half day format. How would you ever hope to shoot a major match quantity of shooters (200-275) through 10 stages in 2 days?? The only place I like alternating squad schedules is at a match with long distances between stages like Rocky Mountain. 1/2 format matches work good in places that have high temps and something to do when not shooting like Vegas or Bend. We've done a 1/2 day format for the last few years at the Northwest Multigun Challenge. Last year we did a 3AM-4PM on Thursday and Friday then 2AM-2PM for a total of 9 stages. People seem to like it, more sign up for the match every year. Based on customer feedback, next year we will do 4AM-3PM so that the afternoon shooters don't have to be in the sun as long. Doug Yeah, I like that.. unfortunately our match is 10 stages, so that doesn't really fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not4you2know Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Area 6 had 397 shooters and 12 stages and the half days worked great. Maybe I'm getting messed up. I'm not including the staff days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoganbillJ Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Big Lucky, How is your range laid out? Are stages close like a bay match or spread out like a natural terrain match? That will generally determine which method will be most efficient. Also, will you have side matches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Area 6 had 397 shooters and 12 stages and the half days worked great. Maybe I'm getting messed up. I'm not including the staff days. Kurt is talking a multi-gun match, not just pistol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not4you2know Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Ah, got it. I know absolutely nothing about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug H. Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Area 6 did half day format. 10 stages in 3 days would drag the match out too long in my opinion. 10 stages in 2 days would be an easy half day format. How would you ever hope to shoot a major match quantity of shooters (200-275) through 10 stages in 2 days?? The only place I like alternating squad schedules is at a match with long distances between stages like Rocky Mountain. 1/2 format matches work good in places that have high temps and something to do when not shooting like Vegas or Bend. We've done a 1/2 day format for the last few years at the Northwest Multigun Challenge. Last year we did a 3AM-4PM on Thursday and Friday then 2AM-2PM for a total of 9 stages. People seem to like it, more sign up for the match every year. Based on customer feedback, next year we will do 4AM-3PM so that the afternoon shooters don't have to be in the sun as long. Doug Yeah, I like that.. unfortunately our match is 10 stages, so that doesn't really fit. Sure it would, you could do 4am-4pm or add an extra stage on the last day 3am-3pm. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigLucky Posted September 15, 2014 Author Share Posted September 15, 2014 Big Lucky, How is your range laid out? Are stages close like a bay match or spread out like a natural terrain match? That will generally determine which method will be most efficient. Also, will you have side matches? 7 of the 10 stages are very close together, 5 within walking distance, the other 2 less than a 5 minute drive. The other 3 are separated from the 7 by about 10 minutes but then they are within a minute or 2 of each other. There will probably be side matches. There will be vendors. The range is in the middle of a massive off-road adventure park, and 20 minutes from some really nice lakes so there is lots of optional stuff to do in the off times for half days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rookie Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 The alternating squad approach will provide some insurance that there is a full squad geared up and ready to start when a stage is available. This alone won't keep your match on schedule... but if you have a slow squad, or a problem on one stage, the domino (delay) effect on subsequent stages is minimized. The logistics for getting from one stage to the next need to be considered in your match format (and probably already is considered). If the travel and shooter "gear up" time fits into your half-day format schedule, then you should be good to go. If you have a couple of complicated stages (high, combined shoot and reset time) compared to the rest of your match and your squad schedule is based upon a shooter-to-shooter time that is lower than these "complicated" stages, then the alternating squad schedule can help keep most of your stages on schedule despite delays on one or more stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1chota Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 I like the Rocky Mountain 3 Gun approach. Shoot one, off one. Gives time to get everything ready for the next stage. my 2 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 SMM3G has done it both ways. More often with the 1/2 day format I think, which I prefer... I don't see the point only shooting every other time period, unless travel was really needed You might PM those guys But you can see from responses, some people like alternating, some don't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug H. Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 (edited) Big Lucky, How is your range laid out? Are stages close like a bay match or spread out like a natural terrain match? That will generally determine which method will be most efficient. Also, will you have side matches? 7 of the 10 stages are very close together, 5 within walking distance, the other 2 less than a 5 minute drive. The other 3 are separated from the 7 by about 10 minutes but then they are within a minute or 2 of each other. There will probably be side matches. There will be vendors. The range is in the middle of a massive off-road adventure park, and 20 minutes from some really nice lakes so there is lots of optional stuff to do in the off times for half days. Based on this alone I would probably do a Squad on Squad off format, otherwise you will have to build in more time to go between stages and doing 10 stages in 2 1/2 days would make that tough. Doug Edited September 15, 2014 by Doug H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigLucky Posted September 15, 2014 Author Share Posted September 15, 2014 Big Lucky, How is your range laid out? Are stages close like a bay match or spread out like a natural terrain match? That will generally determine which method will be most efficient. Also, will you have side matches? 7 of the 10 stages are very close together, 5 within walking distance, the other 2 less than a 5 minute drive. The other 3 are separated from the 7 by about 10 minutes but then they are within a minute or 2 of each other. There will probably be side matches. There will be vendors. The range is in the middle of a massive off-road adventure park, and 20 minutes from some really nice lakes so there is lots of optional stuff to do in the off times for half days. Based on this alone I would probably do a Squad on Squad off format, otherwise you will have to build in more time to go between stages and doing 10 stages in 2 1/2 days would make that tough. Doug Oh and the add to the fun.. we have 3 minute part time stages, with a bit of reset, and most of the stages use all 3 guns.... I really want to do half days, but the more I think about it, the more I think we need alternating.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoganbillJ Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Questions you need to ask are: How much travel time are you allowing between stages?(Half Day) How many shooters per squad? How much reloading time will you allow shooters who just came off the last stage before starting them again?(Half Day) How many side matches will you have for shooters to participate in?(One on, one off) How much time per stage overall are you allowing for the squad to shoot it in? How much time shooter to shooter do you need to meed that deadline? A match that runs on schedule is a match that everyone enjoys, RO's included. All stages need to be running all the time to be efficient. It is also wise to build in a 30 min lunch break. It not only gives your RO's a short break, which they appreciate, but also gives you a little more leeway if a squad is running behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 (edited) The travel time and regear time is a plus for one on - one off. Let's say you schedule 5 minutes a shooter (with reset) so a squad of 12 takes an hour to shoot, plus brief etc. If you go straight from one stage to another. You might be on time on the first stage, but travel will make you late for every other stage in half day format. Even just ten minutes (plus get to your car, take off your holster so you're not stabbed in the side while driving) will mean you will not be at stage 2 in your scheduled hour and a half or whatever. One on, one off - you will be there early. You watch the squad ahead of you. You get your gear ready! When the squad leaves, your whole squad is there ready to go. Shooter's brief, a couple questions, walk through - boom! If your stages are not pretty short and right next to each other, half day is going to make it slow going. Once one squad leaves a stage late, then they are at their next stage late, so the next squad (even if they are a fast squad) and get to the stage on time, they will have to wait for the late squad. The one off/one on also lets your RO's work into a rhythm and not have to wait around. Also, you don't get as many requests to let a few people go ahead to the next stage, which can really goof up squadding and timing...but they always ask, if they're running behind on half days! If your match isn't full, and you have smaller squads, you can probably do half day. At He-Man Nationals, we only have 7 squads and 7 stages, so we don't do half days, just shoot 4 on one day, but I schedule a half hour in for travel, so their squad times are 2 hours apart. That way, people can go to the bathroom/stop and chat/regear/fix a gun/deal with those exciting things life throws at you without being late. I just think it makes for a less rushed day! I like one on one off even at Superstition, because it gives me time to chat with my friends, watch the squad ahead of me, run to the bathroom (I know, it's a recurring theme, but I'm getting old! ) or just breath and try to shake off the way I just screwed up that stage OR RARELY, to revel in a stage I did well on without throwing everything in bags and heading off to the next stage without a breath. I, however, am weird, I HATE being late for anything! Denise P.S. If your shooter's do not have to reset, it makes the half day easier. But if you have shooter's that need to reset and are serious about it, it just makes the whole day seem more like work! Some of the best resetting squads I know, need a little time off in between to relax their resetting muscles! Edited September 15, 2014 by Benelli Chick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericm Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Now, this might sound like I don't "value diversity" but: I travel to a match to shoot, hang around the shooting range and hang around shooters... The only extracurricular activity involves eating good meals with shooters.... I don't travel to matches to "get a quick 9 in" at the local golf course, visit scenic attractions, etc. (I discount visiting Sierra Bullets that time coming back from Midwest3gun) I want a schedule that doesn't start "gawdawful early", finishes before dark and keeps "a nice steady pace" One stage on, one stage off through the day seems to work very well. For those who value such things, I suggest one early morning stage and one early evening stage per day with the rest of the time available for tanning, shopping and sightseeing. That ought to break up the tiresome monotony of shooting a 3 gun match mi dos centavos ericm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EaZeNuTZ33 Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 I prefer half day format because I hate sitting around for over 2 hours going from first shooter to last shooter, and talk to and hang out with my squad the entire time we are shooting anyways...I end up feeling like I need to warm back up to get ready for a stage after being "cold" so long. Half day format usually allows me to keep warm and ready for the next challenge, but does require stages to be a little closer together at times. Stages do need to be able to be shot/reset in roughly the same time frames, so unless your stages are all designed where they are being reset behind the shooter as the shooter progresses to keep overall shooters/hour rate the same, it would be a daunting task to pull off with 10 stages, and have big stages mixed in. Another downfall of half day format...we all like to squad with our friends of weekend warriors, or we all want on those 1-2 SUPER squads of fast shooters. The super squads will always be done early if everyone is resetting, the weekend warriors will always lag behind....especially if you have multiple grossly overweight or geriatric shooters on a squad.....not pointing any fingers, but guys over 300lbs or over 65 with multiple knee replacements aren't going to be bending down and picking up targets to reset as fast as someone hovering around 200lbs or in generally good health. Not knocking anyone there, but in order to make half day work with a match like yours, I would strongly consider squads made up with some intent and only allowing squadding requests by those who are sharing vehicles/equipment if possible. <----Another strong reason half day may not work well for this match, if you're breaking up bromance squads you are going to upset a lot of people who usually squad together as the only time they get to hang out over the course of a year. You have the resources there for some monster stages, which rocks, but also makes things a little more difficult to make half day format work. If you can make it work, make sure to leave plenty of extra time for travel, walk-thru, extra time for shooting/reset than what you think is required...and so on. I'd love to only have to take Friday off work to shoot 10 stages at your match before leaving midday Saturday and having someone walk the prize table for me...or leaving early Sunday morning after Fri/Sat shooting and late Saturday banquet/prize table like at Generation III Gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter115 Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 I agree with everything Mr Miller said. For me traveling to a major 3gun match is a significant investment, monetarily as well as time away from work and family. I go to shoot the match, not go sight seeing and scoping out the local shopping mall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EaZeNuTZ33 Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 I agree with everything Mr Miller said. For me traveling to a major 3gun match is a significant investment, monetarily as well as time away from work and family. I go to shoot the match, not go sight seeing and scoping out the local shopping mall. You can get the same experience...and have half the day to visit vendor booths, shake hands with competitors, visit side matches......or I guess go sight seeing. Advantage of half day over one on/one off format is that you can hang out and get to meet shooters from squads other than yours and the squads in front of and behind you. At the 3GN Regional at Rockcastle, I was able to meet more shooters than most any other match I had previously attended, and even though I didn't shoot well the first day, I really enjoyed meeting everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothandnail Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 I prefer the 1 on 1 off myself, for most of the reasons posted above, but the schedule isn't going to keep me away if it's a match I can attend. We are looking at a shoot 3, off 1 , for our big match in march next year. Still need to run the numbers some more but so far it looks promising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 (edited) Both concepts are meant to get more shooters through the same number of stages without making people stand and wait for a stage to clear. The only difference is that with the half day format you do not wait at the range. The only situation where the 1 on 1 off is better is if there is some something that the shooters should or can be doing between stages, otherwise it is just scheduled waiting. The best option is to have no more squads that there are stages, Then there should be little or no waiting, but then not everyone gets into the match. Barring that option, I would always prefer the 1/2 on 1/2 off or even the 1 day on 1 day off format so that I can spend my off time doing something more productive than sitting at the range waiting for the squad in front of me. We already spend long hours at the range in order to shoot for a few minutes. I am for anything that results in improving the shooting time to time spent at range ratio, be that increasing the shooting time, or decreasing the range time. Edited September 16, 2014 by Stlhead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 I am about to quit shooting any match that doesn't do the half day format. I shoot matches as a hobbie for fun. It is like a vacation to me. I like the ability to do what I want in the off time when I am not shooting. I don't' like being forced to stay on site and wait for the unknown time the squad ahead of me will be finished. This year at the ProAm we waited a long time more than what we were supposed to in order to shoot on several stages. Very often we had the squad ahead of us waiting to shoot when we arrived. I would go back to my hotel room 5-7 miles away or go eat lunch or whatever in-between stages and guess at when we would be up next to shoot. Often times I guessed wrong and either had to come sit and wait longer in the heat or by myself in my rental car in the AC. One time I was late and my squad had already stared shooting. To me that's not a very efficient use of my vacation time away from work. When I go to the half day format matches like FNH or 3GN Regionals or Generation III Gun. I have the ability to make the decision to stay at the range and look at stages, shoot the bull with my shooting buddies or go with my squad or my wife or my family on a tour of local area. I always have more fun when I get to choose. Freedom, 'Merica!!! To run a successful half day match you have to have a few things worked out. Stages need to be similarly balanced on timing. That is really crucial for any match unless you build in smaller buffer stages around big stages to stop the slinky effect. You have to have RO's and RM that are willing to keep things moving. You can't let people show up for the walk through when they are ready. They need to be there on time. If that means they need to load their mags and get their gear in order in the morning/evening or when they are not resetting the previous or current stage so be it. You don't' have an hour off in-between stages to reset yourself. The staff may need to help remind shooters that they are on a schedule. If stages are spread out you have to give time for travel between stages as well as the walk thru. You have to have enough daylight in case things break on a stage or you get behind schedule for some unforeseen reason. Be sure to look at your sunrise/sunset times. Here is the half day format that we ran at are the half day format that we ran at GIIIG this year. We were on schedule for all but a few squads. Unfortunately we did not have a full match so we had flexibility. It wasn't perfect because we smashed a 9th stage into the match kinda last minute. Had we stayed with an 8 stage match we would have been golden. 2014 Generation III Gun Championship 2 day 9 stage schedule .pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 (edited) Here is the tentative schedule we are going to use next year for the GIIIG Championship. 2 day 8 stage 1/2 day format. squad size 12, 225 shooters in the max. 2 Day 8 Stage Half Day Match Schedule.pdf Edited September 16, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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