Magsz Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 CZ USA is NOT CZ custom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johes Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 (edited) IDPA can't allow this gun in SSP, because USPSA allows it in production. We can't do anything like them, even if it makes sense. This thinking is the reason the new rule book turned out to be such a mess. Edited September 10, 2014 by johes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 (edited) CZ USA is NOT CZ custom. It's sold through CZ USA has a CZ USA SKU and is in the CZ USA catalog. Sounds like the functional equivalent of the S&W Performance Center to me. Edited September 10, 2014 by alma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 (edited) I think the difference is s+w are the oem. Cz USA or cz custom are not the oem in this case. Cz ub is. This sounds like the same hurdle the accu hit in IPSC. It's a shame for anyone who bought one for idpa. Bummer. What you, I, or anyone else defines as OEM doesn't matter. What the book defines as OEM is the only thing that matters. Based on the definition of OEM, the AccuShadow is most definitely acceptable. However, Neither CZ-USA nor CZUB pour buckets of money into IDPA like Smith & Wesson does. IDPA makes up the rules as it goes along and contradicts itself when convenient. Edited September 10, 2014 by elguapo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 I think the difference is s+w are the oem. Cz USA or cz custom are not the oem in this case. Cz ub is. This sounds like the same hurdle the accu hit in IPSC. It's a shame for anyone who bought one for idpa. Bummer. What you, I, or anyone else defines as OEM doesn't matter. What the book defines as OEM is the only thing that matters. Based on the definition of OEM, the AccuShadow is most definitely acceptable. However, Neither CZ-USA nor CZUB pour buckets of money into IDPA like Smith & Wesson does. IDPA makes up the rules as it goes along and contradicts itself when convenient. According to the IDPA rules clarification IDPA defines OEM as: "...With respect to slide machining, SSP, ESP and CDP, Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) firearms with extensive slide machining are approved for use in IDPA if they meet all other requirements for their respective Divisions. For slide machining, an OEM product is defined as a complete firearm product, with specific model part numbers or skus catalogued as stock items by the manufacturer and have a minimum annual production of 2,000 units for that specific model." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt7184 Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 CZ USA is NOT CZ custom. It's sold through CZ USA has a CZ USA SKU and is in the CZ USA catalog. Sounds like the functional equivalent of the S&W Performance Center to me. Does CZ-UB or CZ-USA own CZ Custom? http://cz-usa.com/company/about-cz-usa/ http://czcustom.com/about-us.aspx PC is owned by S&W. Just like Sig Custom Shop is owned by Sig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 CZ USA is NOT CZ custom. It's sold through CZ USA has a CZ USA SKU and is in the CZ USA catalog. Sounds like the functional equivalent of the S&W Performance Center to me. Does CZ-UB or CZ-USA own CZ Custom? http://cz-usa.com/company/about-cz-usa/ http://czcustom.com/about-us.aspx PC is owned by S&W. Just like Sig Custom Shop is owned by Sig. The rules don't require direct ownership. Just that they have a standard configured gun with a SKU that is produced in numbers 2k or greater per year and that meets the other IDPA division requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt7184 Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Well then it's not a functional difference. CZ-USA and Ghost/CZ-Custom are two different companies. Has CZ-Custom Shop put out 2000+ Accushadows already? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Well then it's not a functional difference. CZ-USA and Ghost/CZ-Custom are two different companies. Has CZ-Custom Shop put out 2000+ Accushadows already? Yes, that is why they are Production legal for USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt7184 Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Granted it's Wikipedia...but it states that USPSA has 25,000 active members. Am I the only one that finds it odd that Accushadows are hard to get but there are 2,000+ out there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blind bat Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 (edited) I wonder what will happen if CZ Custom transfers the maching and assembly of the Accu-Shadow to CZ-USA (who also doesn't produce firearms). Would that be SSP legal? What if CZ Custom takes a royalty on every Accu-Shadow? Still legal? Additionally, if CZ Custom contracted with CZ-UB to have the guns frames/slides produced and marked as "CZC Accu-Shadow" would that be legal? Is that any different than Springfield selling the P9, EAA rebranding Tanfolios or STI rebranding the Grand Power? Edit, What happens if CZC produces a piece of paper showing they are under contract with CZ to tweak the Shadow for the OEM. I'm pretty sure every OEM uses sub-contractors. Especially for stuff like frame forgings and barrels. Edited September 10, 2014 by blind bat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt7184 Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 "OEM product is defined as a complete firearm product, with specific model part numbers or sku’s catalogued as stock items by the manufacturer and have a minimum annual production of 2,000 units for that specific model" So unless the Accushadow comes from CZ-USA (legal importer for CZ-UB) complete...I don't understand how it would be legal in IDPA. IDPA may make a lot of head scratching decisions and rules, but this one seems to make sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skatz11 Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 From CZ-USA website http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-75-sp-01-accu-shadow-9mm-black-3x18-rd-mags-by-cz-custom/ SKU: 91730 "Short of a full custom pistol, it’d be difficult to find greater out-of-the-box accuracy than the Accu-Shadow can deliver." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt7184 Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 From that link...BY CZ CUSTOM SHOP. Which is another company not owned by CZ-UB/USA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRevolutionIX Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Granted it's Wikipedia...but it states that USPSA has 25,000 active members. Am I the only one that finds it odd that Accushadows are hard to get but there are 2,000+ out there? Yes they are hard to find but I do not find it hard to believe that there are at least 2000 out there. As we all know, as soon as these things are available for sale, they are usually gone that same day. Most shops have implemented a wait list for these things. When they become available mostly all are already spoken for. I got lucky with mine. It was actually sitting in a display case at one of my local gun shops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blind bat Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 "OEM product is defined as a complete firearm product, with specific model part numbers or sku’s catalogued as stock items by the manufacturer and have a minimum annual production of 2,000 units for that specific model" So unless the Accushadow comes from CZ-USA (legal importer for CZ-UB) complete...I don't understand how it would be legal in IDPA. IDPA may make a lot of head scratching decisions and rules, but this one seems to make sense to me. I see where you are coming from but if the firearm has never been transfered and it's functional (meaning not a kit or a receiver) when it is transfered and the box has a specific OEM model number/sku isn't it a complete firearm? Additionally, I own the first short dust cover shadow ever sold. The first batch of guns were delivered to CZ Custom as unassembled pieces (mostly the frame, slide, and barrel). CZC put it together with all the go fast parts (competition hammer, extended firing pin, drop free mag brake, etc.). The short dust cover Shadows have been in the CZ-USA catalog since they were announced. It looks like CZUB now produces a short dust cover Shadow for export. Does that mean my Shadow (with all the same markings) is not legal but the same gun assembled across the pond is legal? The original intent of the short dust cover Shadow was to make weight in IDPA. If CZC building guns for the CZ-USA catalog was a problem IDPA should have made the ruling back four years ago. Honestly, I think IDPA has the potential to cause more problems than they solved with this ruling. And no one would have been that upset if they outlawed the gun at the end of the season. Don't make someone have to change their equipment the day before a major match. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt7184 Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Granted it's Wikipedia...but it states that USPSA has 25,000 active members. Am I the only one that finds it odd that Accushadows are hard to get but there are 2,000+ out there? Yes they are hard to find but I do not find it hard to believe that there are at least 2000 out there. As we all know, as soon as these things are available for sale, they are usually gone that same day. Most shops have implemented a wait list for these things. When they become available mostly all are already spoken for. I got lucky with mine. It was actually sitting in a display case at one of my local gun shops. Well CZ Custom isn't a huge operation unless I am totally misinformed. I am curious to know how many Accushadows they could realistically put out daily. 2000 modified Shadows seems like a bit of work for a few guys. Blind Bat: I think the CZ Custom stuff is a bit of a joke personally whether it comes to running an Accushadow in Production or SSP. My personal belief is CZ gets special treatment with the rules (especially USPSA), but I am sure others will disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRevolutionIX Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Granted it's Wikipedia...but it states that USPSA has 25,000 active members. Am I the only one that finds it odd that Accushadows are hard to get but there are 2,000+ out there?Yes they are hard to find but I do not find it hard to believe that there are at least 2000 out there. As we all know, as soon as these things are available for sale, they are usually gone that same day. Most shops have implemented a wait list for these things. When they become available mostly all are already spoken for. I got lucky with mine. It was actually sitting in a display case at one of my local gun shops. Well CZ Custom isn't a huge operation unless I am totally misinformed. I am curious to know how many Accushadows they could realistically put out daily. 2000 modified Shadows seems like a bit of work for a few guys. Blind Bat: I think the CZ Custom stuff is a bit of a joke personally whether it comes to running an Accushadow in Production or SSP. My personal belief is CZ gets special treatment with the rules (especially USPSA), but I am sure others will disagree. I can't speak on the size of their operation or number of employees they have but I did visit their shop once and I can say it is was not what I was expecting. It was a very small store front that seemed to have a lot of "stuff" going on in the back. Maybe because I own one and I take notice to others that have CZs, I can honestly say I think there are at least 2000 out these out there. I personally know of 5 other people that own accushadows. A couple of them have 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quack Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 (edited) Will have to see how it plays out. CZ-USA is a sponsor for Nationals. http://www.idpa.com/blog/post/2014/09/09/Federal-Premium-Sponsors-2014-IDPA-US-National-Championship.aspx Edited September 10, 2014 by Quack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 From that link...BY CZ CUSTOM SHOP. Which is another company not owned by CZ-UB/USA. Jesus H Christ on a cracker, the IDPA rules make no mention of corporate structure or subcontractual agreements when defining what OEM is or is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGus Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Granted it's Wikipedia...but it states that USPSA has 25,000 active members. Am I the only one that finds it odd that Accushadows are hard to get but there are 2,000+ out there? Yes they are hard to find but I do not find it hard to believe that there are at least 2000 out there. As we all know, as soon as these things are available for sale, they are usually gone that same day. Most shops have implemented a wait list for these things. When they become available mostly all are already spoken for. I got lucky with mine. It was actually sitting in a display case at one of my local gun shops. Well CZ Custom isn't a huge operation unless I am totally misinformed. I am curious to know how many Accushadows they could realistically put out daily. 2000 modified Shadows seems like a bit of work for a few guys. Blind Bat: I think the CZ Custom stuff is a bit of a joke personally whether it comes to running an Accushadow in Production or SSP. My personal belief is CZ gets special treatment with the rules (especially USPSA), but I am sure others will disagree. Matt7184, you seem to have a hard on for proving CZ Custom hasn't generated over 2000 Accu Shadows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbosik Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Granted it's Wikipedia...but it states that USPSA has 25,000 active members. Am I the only one that finds it odd that Accushadows are hard to get but there are 2,000+ out there?Yes they are hard to find but I do not find it hard to believe that there are at least 2000 out there. As we all know, as soon as these things are available for sale, they are usually gone that same day. Most shops have implemented a wait list for these things. When they become available mostly all are already spoken for. I got lucky with mine. It was actually sitting in a display case at one of my local gun shops. Well CZ Custom isn't a huge operation unless I am totally misinformed. I am curious to know how many Accushadows they could realistically put out daily. 2000 modified Shadows seems like a bit of work for a few guys. Blind Bat: I think the CZ Custom stuff is a bit of a joke personally whether it comes to running an Accushadow in Production or SSP. My personal belief is CZ gets special treatment with the rules (especially USPSA), but I am sure others will disagree. Matt7184, you seem to have a hard on for proving CZ Custom hasn't generated over 2000 Accu Shadows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbosik Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 (edited) I think you could go back and forth forever with Matt7184 and never convince him. Lucky for us he has no direct input on rules.I think he is trolling this thread. Edited September 10, 2014 by pbosik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swhiteh3 Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 I guess that the IDPA waited to make the announcement until the check from the CZ sponsorship cleared..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 I guess that the IDPA waited to make the announcement until the check from the CZ sponsorship cleared..... Ouch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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