Hours Before Nationals... Accu-Shadow :-(

[jester121]

Isn't the IDPA rule 2,000 per year or 20,000 total for discontinued?

[zhunter]

Isn't the IDPA rule 2,000 per year or 20,000 total for discontinued?

It's not discontinued, because my new one arrives today

[matt7184]

From that link...BY CZ CUSTOM SHOP. Which is another company not owned by CZ-UB/USA.

Jesus H Christ on a cracker, the IDPA rules make no mention of corporate structure or subcontractual agreements when defining what OEM is or is not.

Ghost/CZ Custom(a separate custom shop) is milling slides. They are not the manufacturer. Is CZ Custom a legally licensed firearms manufacturer? Feel free to review 8.2.1.3. Unless the guns are coming complete from CZ-USA, I don't see how they would be legal according to the IDPA rules.

And I do have a hard time believing there are 2000 AccuShadows out there. It seems like most of the people are just butt hurt here that the IDPA has ruled the gun illegal.

I think you could go back and forth forever with Matt7184 and never convince him. Lucky for us he has no direct input on rules.I think he is trolling this thread.

I don't have direct input, but it seems that my interpretation is the same as those at IDPA HQ. I think they have a direct say because I don't think anyone will be using CZ AccuShadow...

Edited September 10, 2014 by matt7184

[El Guapo]

I guess that the IDPA waited to make the announcement until the check from the CZ sponsorship cleared.....

Ouch

You need a new screen name. This one is taken.

[GForceLizard]

The Shadow Target should be IDPA legal for SSP because CZ Custom modifies the gun and then it's sold through the CZ dealer network as a new CZ. Don't see how that's any different from CZC being a sub-contractor to a CZ production gun.

The ACCU Shadow is different in that I cannot buy it from any CZ dealer. Not that I think this makes any difference. It seems that who does the work is as important to IDPA as what is being produced.

Edited September 10, 2014 by GForceLizard

[blind bat]

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained

by stupidity." Maybe I'm naive I don't honestly believe IDPA makes these rulings based on sponsorship money. Also, sponsorship levels are usually calculated based on the retail value of merchandise donated for the prize table. In regards to the S&W slide cuts being legal, I bet they had to allow those guns after they set a precedent by allowing the G34/G35 with the giant hole in the slide.

[motosapiens]

The ACCU Shadow is different in that I cannot buy it from any CZ dealer. Not that I think this makes any difference. It seems that who does the work is as important to IDPA as what is being produced.

Why not? other people have seen them at dealers.

[JGus]

From that link...BY CZ CUSTOM SHOP. Which is another company not owned by CZ-UB/USA.

Jesus H Christ on a cracker, the IDPA rules make no mention of corporate structure or subcontractual agreements when defining what OEM is or is not.

Ghost/CZ Custom(a separate custom shop) is milling slides. They are not the manufacturer. Is CZ Custom a legally licensed firearms manufacturer? Feel free to review 8.2.1.3. Unless the guns are coming complete from CZ-USA, I don't see how they would be legal according to the IDPA rules.

And I do have a hard time believing there are 2000 AccuShadows out there. It seems like most of the people are just butt hurt here that the IDPA has ruled the gun illegal.

I think you could go back and forth forever with Matt7184 and never convince him. Lucky for us he has no direct input on rules.I think he is trolling this thread.

I don't have direct input, but it seems that my interpretation is the same as those at IDPA HQ. I think they have a direct say because I don't think anyone will be using CZ AccuShadow...

Matt7184, again, why the crusade against the number of Accu's produced? I'm sure CZ Custom has produced more than 2000 required to be USPSA PRD legal. Just in the little shooting club I belong to there are 6 Accu's. There might even be more if I really paid attention. Extrapolate that through out the U.S. and the numbers are no doubt in excess of the required 2000.

I don't shoot IDPA, never have, and have no intention to ever shoot it. I have a hard enough time trying to master USPSA Production division. But, the TIMING of IDPA's ruling was comical; the night before Nationals. If that's how they want to rule, fine. But it should have been done months before the Nationals, or after the Nationals. But the NIGHT before?!

The "magical" effect (affect?) of shooting an Accu is way overblown. I shoot an Accu in Production. I love the gun. It feels great, functions great. However, the gun itself isn't going to take anyone to the next level. For crying out loud, it's just a bushing. A good trigger job will benefit a shooter more than adding a bushing.

Edited September 10, 2014 by JGus

[matt7184]

JGus...it isn't a crusade. I just question the numbers. I could absolutely be wrong. And as far as AccuShadows are concerned...I think the arrangements made between CZ USA and CZ Custom have blurred the lines as to who the real manufacturer is and what is legally defined as the manufacturer. I just find it interesting that for an organization with 25,000 active members that it's so hard to find a gun with more than 2000 produced.

I agree about the timing and that it isn't a magical gun by any means. The timing stunk and I do feel bad for the people planning to shoot the guns at Nationals. I think IDPA is trying to make things right by providing loaner guns and equipment or refunds (and yes, I know it's not ideal at all).

Article on the topic:

http://www.gunnuts.net/2014/09/10/more-on-the-idpa-ban-of-the-cz-accu-shadow/

[zhunter]

JGus...it isn't a crusade. I just question the numbers. I could absolutely be wrong. And as far as AccuShadows are concerned...I think the arrangements made between CZ USA and CZ Custom have blurred the lines as to who the real manufacturer is and what is legally defined as the manufacturer. I just find it interesting that for an organization with 25,000 active members that it's so hard to find a gun with more than 2000 produced.

I agree about the timing and that it isn't a magical gun by any means. The timing stunk and I do feel bad for the people planning to shoot the guns at Nationals. I think IDPA is trying to make things right by providing loaner guns and equipment or refunds (and yes, I know it's not ideal at all).

Article on the topic:

http://www.gunnuts.net/2014/09/10/more-on-the-idpa-ban-of-the-cz-accu-shadow/

What makes you think all 2000+ are in possession of ONLY USPSA members?

I'm thinking YOUR thinking I'd very flawed

[matt7184]

I never said only. However the gun caters to the USPSA crowd. Most people in the general public do not buy $1200+ guns nor will they hunt for a gun that is not readily available......especially not a CZ.

And it seems like I am not the only one questioning the 2k+ numbers of AccuShadows available to the general public: http://www.gunnuts.net/2014/09/09/breaking-cz-accu-shadow-not-legal-for-idpa-ssp/

[Magsz]

Some random dude walking off of the street wanting a CZ is rare.

Some random dude walking off of the street wanting an 1800 dollar CZ is...yeah, follow that train.

Im with Matt on this as i do think there are quite a few shenanigans being played here on both sides of the fence.

I think the only real issue here is the timing of the rule as others have said. The night before a major match is just ridiculous and could have been handled WAY better.

[Quack]

The Shadow Target should be IDPA legal for SSP because CZ Custom modifies the gun and then it's sold through the CZ dealer network as a new CZ. Don't see how that's any different from CZC being a sub-contractor to a CZ production gun.

The ACCU Shadow is different in that I cannot buy it from any CZ dealer. Not that I think this makes any difference. It seems that who does the work is as important to IDPA as what is being produced.

If the Accu Shadow isn't legal, (due to milling for bushing and CZC nit being an OEM) the Target wouldn't be legal because the slide is milled for the rear sight.

I bought my Accu Shadow from a dealer, it was just sitting on the shelf. I stopped at that particular shop because they had 2 Czechmates on the shelf a few months before and I was hoping they had one left.

Oak hill seems to get them on a regular basis and sell out in a day or 2.

Edited September 10, 2014 by Quack

[kitestir]

I find it hard to believe that CZ custom puts out 5.47 of these things each and every day to make 2000 in a year. That everyday including weekends and holidays. These things have a bit of work in them. If they put out this many everyday I doubt you would have to wait as long as you do to get one...

Don't have a dog in the fight on this one-just saying.......

[motosapiens]

I find it hard to believe that CZ custom puts out 5.47 of these things each and every day to make 2000 in a year. That everyday including weekends and holidays. These things have a bit of work in them. If they put out this many everyday I doubt you would have to wait as long as you do to get one...

Don't have a dog in the fight on this one-just saying.......

Why do you think 5+/day is unreasonable? How long do you think each one takes?

[matt7184]

I find it hard to believe that CZ custom puts out 5.47 of these things each and every day to make 2000 in a year. That everyday including weekends and holidays. These things have a bit of work in them. If they put out this many everyday I doubt you would have to wait as long as you do to get one...

Don't have a dog in the fight on this one-just saying.......

5.48

You don't work during holidays and weekends?

http://shootersmagazine.com/cz75-sp-01-accu-shadow-from-cz-custom-shop/

When was the AccuShadow approved in USPSA?

Edited September 10, 2014 by matt7184

[kitestir]

Not saying it isn't possible. But they have to fit the fire controls in stall sights, cut slide for bushing, assemble and test fire. Oh ya don't forget this isn't the only model they make. They make sp-01 customs, cz-75 customs, p-01 customs, CTS, 09's, plus all of the guns guys send in for custom work... probably missed a couple also...how many of all of these do you think can be pumped out daily and still have quality up where it is? I have never heard of any issues with their stuff which tells me they do what it takes to get out quality guns, not an assembly line....

[Magsz]

They have alot on their plate and they are not a huge shop...

So from pure machine hours alone, 5.48 a day is a pretty lofty goal. Throw in the need to poly coat the slides again and yeah...

Now, i dont want to assume too much about their operation as i do not work there nor do i have any clue as to what their workflow is i just have a REALLY sour taste in my mouth about this whole thing. It smells like the accushadow, brings back bad memories of that whole Paul Hendrix thing and casts a pretty bad shadow over the org.

[matt7184]

Not saying it isn't possible. But they have to fit the fire controls in stall sights, cut slide for bushing, assemble and test fire. Oh ya don't forget this isn't the only model they make. They make sp-01 customs, cz-75 customs, p-01 customs, CTS, 09's, plus all of the guns guys send in for custom work... probably missed a couple also...how many of all of these do you think can be pumped out daily and still have quality up where it is? I have never heard of any issues with their stuff which tells me they do what it takes to get out quality guns, not an assembly line....

And correct me if I am wrong...but aren't their master gunsmiths also active competitors who travel? And I'm sure these guys (and gals if any) have families.

[matt7184]

They have alot on their plate and they are not a huge shop...

So from pure machine hours alone, 5.48 a day is a pretty lofty goal. Throw in the need to poly coat the slides again and yeah...

Now, i dont want to assume too much about their operation as i do not work there nor do i have any clue as to what their workflow is i just have a REALLY sour taste in my mouth about this whole thing. It smells like the accushadow, brings back bad memories of that whole Paul Hendrix thing and casts a pretty bad shadow over the org.

Or the FNS 9L situation...

[GForceLizard]

If Accu Shadows are being sold through the CZ USA dealer network the IDPA ruling is wrong. As soon as CZ USA tells IDPA they have reached the 2000 units produced it should be SSP legal.

[kitestir]

If Accu Shadows are being sold through the CZ USA dealer network the IDPA ruling is wrong. As soon as CZ USA tells IDPA they have reached the 2000 units produced it should be SSP legal.

This is not true. Idpa requires 2000 Yearly. Uspsa requires they just reach 2000. If it has taken say 18 months for 2k to be produced they have not met the requirement.

[JGus]

I don't understand the conspiracy theorists debate on whether 2000 Accu's have been manufactured? It's approved for USPSA Production division, so who gives a shit? It's a moot point.

If you really have an issue with it don't bitch on BEnos, do something about it and contact USPSA. And since it's already on their approved Production list, I'm sure they will give it their full attention, much like they did the FNS longslide. But the next time you shoot a USPSA Major, pay attention. There will be more Accu's than you think. Even in the local area club matches I shoot I see a fair share of Accu's, In the area I shoot, at the 4 different club matches I shoot each month, I see quite a few Shadows and a decent number of those are Accu's (I have no idea the %). However, I've only seen one guy shooting a Tanfo/EAA Stock II, and it's .40s&w.

Edited September 10, 2014 by JGus

[IDescribe]

I'm a CZ fan and a customer of CZ Custom, so this isn't coming from a hater -- I am extremely fond of CZC -- but I, too, find it hard to believe they are producing 2000 per year, which is different from there being "2000 out there". Accu-Shadows were being produced by CZ-Custom before CZ-USA added it to the catalog and gave it its own SKU. You take out weekends and holidays, and you're down to 240-250 work days per year. That's about 8/work-day. And as someone else pointed out, they do custom work on FAR more than Accu-Shadows. It's a small operation, not a factory. They're artisans, not assembly line workers. 8/day is a big stretch factoring in everything else they do. Not impossible, but difficult to imagine. Hand-fitting over-sized discos, milling slides and hand-fitting bushings and barrels, polishing/smoothing contact points in the disco, sear, hammer hooks, etc., test-firing guns. That takes time, and, again, it's one of many things they do.

At the end of the day, though, this is just another of the thousands of threads of people upset that a gun that is clearly not a stock service pistol being prevented from competing as a stock service pistol. If a 3rd party gunsmith business can do this work to a pistol and it still qualify for SSP, then what's illegal for SSP? Optics, compensators and aftermarket magwells?

And while it's fair to say that if this pistol is not SSP-legal, then there are others that shouldn't be as well, that's a different argument, and it should be an argument about barring the others, not legalizing the Accu-Shadow.

We're talking about SSP, and this is a pistol that has had the nose milled out and a 1911 match-bushing installed by a 3rd party gunsmith. You shouldn't have to think about it much beyond that.

[kitestir]

I don't understand the conspiracy theorists debate on whether 2000 Accu's have been manufactured? It's approved for USPSA Production division, so who gives a shit? It's a moot point.

If you really have an issue with it don't bitch on BEnos, do something about it and contact USPSA. And since it's already on their approved Production list, I'm sure they will give it their full attention, much like they did the FNS longslide. But the next time you shoot a USPSA Major, pay attention. There will be more Accu's than you think. Even in the local area club matches I shoot I see a fair share of Accu's, In the area I shoot, at the 4 different club matches I shoot each month, I see quite a few Shadows and a decent number of those are Accu's (I have no idea the %). However, I've only seen one guy shooting a Tanfo/EAA Stock II, and it's .40s&w.

The debate is idpa, not uspsa. Its on the production list so there is no argument there..... Edited September 10, 2014 by kitestir