ron169 Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 At our local classifier match Saturday, I had a number of jams through the day and realized that the rounds were severely set back. I switched to some older ammo after I discovered the problem and it helped some. The gun: glock 35 gen 4 limited set up with stock barrel The press: Hornady lnl AP with hornady dies, to include a joint seat and crimp die. My experience: just finished my first 4 pound jug of powder so estimate 4000 total rounds loaded, all 40 caliber range pick up brass. After finishing the jug of powder, I decided to do a thorough cleaning of dies and press. Since then I can notget my crimp properly set. I'm loading to 1.125 coal. I tried several methods to set up crimp to include putting an empty piece of brass in press, running it into dire and screwing die down until I feel resistance, then tighten in 1/8 turn increments until it's properly crimped. No matter what I do, if I crimp to the point where it's just above bulging the middle of the brass, I still experience bullet set back. I understand some set back is expected, but I'm going from 1.125 to 1.100 or less after chambering a round from slide lock. If I go any more, it either won't chamber with a drop test or it bulges in the middle. I've checked inside diameter of empty crimped brass and it measures .380-.385 in inside diameter. Can anyone offer any advice, this is getting frustrated and I've got my first major coming up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 No matter what I do, if I crimp to the point where it's just above bulging the middle of the brass, I still experience bullet set back. Crimp doesn't affect bullet setback. That's the sizing dies (station 1) - to make the case tight enough to hold the bullet firmly. Possible your bullets are undersized? Not great idea to set OAL and crimp at same station, BTW. Good luck with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dillon Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 In any brand of dies, the size die should size the fired case enough that the neck tension secures the bullet in place. All the crimp die should do is remove the flaring and squeeze the case against the sides of the bullet. Pull the round out before crimping and see if the bullet is snug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhotoRecon Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 I once experimented with varying levels of sizing my brass and immediately ran into bullet set back problems. Just a guess but was wondering if your sizing die was set correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 The press: Hornady lnl AP with hornady dies, Get a Udie to include a joint seat and crimp die. Ditch the combination die. Seating and crimping are best done separately. After finishing the jug of powder, I decided to do a thorough cleaning of dies and press. Since then I can notget my crimp properly set. This will teach you to leave the machine alone as long as it is running smoothly! No matter what I do, if I crimp to the point where it's just above bulging the middle of the brass, I still experience bullet set back. The more you crimp the less neck tension. That tension is what holds the bullet in place so you just barely want to remove the bell. I understand some set back is expected, You understand incorrectly then. There should be virtually no set back if you are using good technique and the right equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZombieHunter Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Two words: Undersize Die. Problem solved. http://www.egwguns.com/tooling/undersize-reloading-die-.40-s-w/10mm/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdude Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 What brand of brass are you using? Case wall thickness can vary a little bit from one brand to another. Take some of your sized cases, different brands, and measure their inside diameter. As others have said, the neck tension should hold the bullet in place. A U-die might solve your problem What bullets are you using? Some types of bullets might be more "slippery" than others and can encourage setback. For example, moly coated bullets seem pretty slippery to me. Maybe a different bullet is in order as well, but tell us more about your components. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckols Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Thoughts: The OAL looks right at 1.125-27" Crimp should be in range of 0.423-0.425" from my experience. Sizing die-check your setup for full and adequate resizing Crimp-same; I would make some dummies and start w/lightest crimp and gradually increase it checking each dummy for push back and "kerplunk"test. Pull the bullets to check the condition of the pulled bullet side faces. When U get pass on push back & kerplunk your pulled bullets should only show minor line, NO BULGE!. O/W I'd go with thought you have oversized bullets. Seems it would be hard to be having a problem with oversized brass unless you just hit a streak where it dominates your range mix on pickup. Luck Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron169 Posted August 5, 2014 Author Share Posted August 5, 2014 I'll try to answer all the questions accordingly. Went home on break and checked the bullets, which are 180 grain fmj. They measured .4000-.4005 using my digital calipers. Also, using one fired federal yellow brass. I have unlimited supply of range pick up 40 brass from our department. I would say that half of the brass is out of gen 2 glock and the other half is out of gen 3 glock. Any future brass will be gen 3/gen 4 since we finally upgraded.I divide brass by type with federal yellow being used for "match ammo" and all others being used for practice ammo. And of the three types of federal brass I have found, I only use one type, trying to keep some uniformity. Well the Lee u die work well enough? I can get the egw if needed, but can combine an order at midway and get some other stuff if the Lee will work. I find it odd that the sizing die is of since I don't recall adjusting that one, but it could definitely be a case of over crimping. Thanks everyone for the help, well report back tomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Going back to the thin case wall comment. federal in 9mm is some of the thinnest I came across. It is why I went to the udie. Stands to reason it would be thinner in 40 as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Neill Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 The four factors that will affect bullet tension are: 1. Bullet diameter 2. Sizer die diameter 3. Case wall thickness 4. Expander ball diameter At .400 - .4005, the bullet diameter seems okay a sizer die on the larger side of the tolerance may be part of the problem, perhaps combined with thin case walls. In either situation, the sizing operation may not be able to reduce the case diameter sufficiently to adequately hold the bullet. As stated above, check the case wall thickness in several of the cases. Thicknesses from 0.010 to 0.014 are expected, with 0.012 - 0.014 preferred. Teh sizer die ID also matters in concert with the case wall thickness. There is a (slight) possibility that the case wall is too thick. In this situation all may go well until bullet seating/crimping where the thick case wall may swage the bullet smaller. The bullet has little springback compared to the case, so a thick case wall could see the bullet being made too small. You might pull a bullet or two that has been loaded and check the bullet diameter. The expander ball should be about 0.002" smaller than the bullet diameter. Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy1629 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I had the same issue with certain bullets/brass combinations on 9mm. Went to the U-die and never looked back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregJ Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I had similar setback issues with 45ACP, had to sort brass to be used at matches. I tried Hornady and RCBS dies. The U-die fixed my issues, never had to sort brass since, nor had any setback issues. This is with 230gr Zero FMJ. The U-Die does add quite a bit more resistance and you may feel it in your elbow after a few hundred rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dauntedfuture Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 What profile bullets? Place loaded round against table bullet down, apply weight to base of case. If it moves at all then its neck tension, if you are having jams that are setting the bullets back then its something with the bullet profile or length. Can you drop a loaded round into your barrel and have it "thunk" on the bottom? If not then you need to look at seating deeper or a different bullet. I second the U Die and use of a separate crimp die. Is there a chance that you are using Hornady dies? If so, many of the .40 dies used a roll crimp, yes that's right a roll crimp. It took me a long time to identify that issue. Hornady sent me a taper crimp die for free and I think they have since "fixed" the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 The U-Die does add quite a bit more resistance and you may feel it in your elbow after a few hundred rounds. One Shot is your friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregJ Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 The U-Die does add quite a bit more resistance and you may feel it in your elbow after a few hundred rounds. One Shot is your friend. Tried that, Didnt like the way it dirties up the sizing die. Besides, I also have the case feeder, and didnt want it gumming up the works. Lesser of the evils I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWFAN Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I couldnt get the Hornady 9mm size die to not cause setback. The U-die fixed my problems, and I've loaded 10's of thousands of rounds with a combo-seat/crimp die with no issues since then. One-shot or dillon case lube make's it easy on the arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 The U-Die does add quite a bit more resistance and you may feel it in your elbow after a few hundred rounds. One Shot is your friend. Tried that, Didnt like the way it dirties up the sizing die. Besides, I also have the case feeder, and didnt want it gumming up the works. Lesser of the evils I guess. You evidently are using way way too much lube! Many here run one shot with case feeders and have zero problems. Takes like 2 one second blasts to lube a whole box of brass. About once a year I take the plate out of the case feeder and wipe a rag sprayed with a few shots of mineral spirits over everything. Looks like brand new in 30 seconds. I can't count the number of guys who came here having problems with oal, sore arms, broken presses, etc that didn't lube brass because, "lube is not required with carbide dies". They turn into real believers after trying it just one time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron169 Posted August 6, 2014 Author Share Posted August 6, 2014 Just as an update. I left the sizing die where it was and backed off the expanding die and the crimp. Loaded up a couple of dummy rounds and checked them for set back with repeated slide release chanting. Checked each round before and after ~10 or so test, the I overall length went from 1.125 down to 1.123 at the worse. That leads me to believe that I was either being the case to much or crimping to much, messing up the neck tension. Only word thing is that I heard a slight rattle when I shook the round after seating it. Furthermore, I checked case thickness. A few measured .0105 up to .012. I ordered a Lee u die so hopefully that will further prevent any problems! Thanks everyone for all your help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Lee makes the EGW die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron169 Posted August 9, 2014 Author Share Posted August 9, 2014 Got the Lee u die today and it appears that all is well! Thanks everyone for the help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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