Opinions on differences in shooting the SP-01 and the CZ 75 short dust

[SpankYa]

I have a 75B SP-01 and an SP-01 Shadow. I've never shot the CZ 75 with the short dustcover. In theory, less weight could offer faster transitions, but also introduce more muzzle flip.

I'd like to hear from those who have actually shot these two how you feel they're different.

Thanks!

[TerryT]

Transition speed difference isn't noticeable. Difference in muzzle flip is very noticeable to me. The Shadow also feels more solid in my grip with less sight movement.

[Magsz]

Im the opposite, i do notice a transition difference on wide targets or steel challenge type courses. I much prefer the CZ75 to the Shadow as i do not like nose heavy guns.

Splits to me to a certain degree do not matter whereas transitions and movement with the gun does.

This is why i shoot a P09 that weighs under 35 ounces.

[kneelingatlas]

You should ask Rowdy (http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showuser=48449), he shot a 75B in IDPA, bought an SP01 Shadow when he started shooting USPSA and shortly traded it to me for a short dust cover Shadow.

You really have three nose configurations for a CZ Production gun:

Heavy:

Light:

Lighter:

Then there's the Phantom as well, but I don't know anyone shooting one of those...

The lighter muzzle does transition faster, but also flips more, but flips faster as well. If you ask me it's all about getting in rhythm with the gun and dancing with it

[Magsz]

The shadowline is THE ideal short dustcover gun since it offers the user a beveled magwell.

The standard short dustcover shadows have regular CZ75 style frames with no bevel...blech.

[skippyaz]

In theory, I believe you are right. It is a transition vs muzzle flip trade off between the two. I have both an SP-01 and 75 Shadow, and admittedly am probably not good enough to discern a performance difference. For me, the balance of the 75 is why it's my favorite shooter. It feels less nose heavy than the SP-01.

[JayDee]

I've owned all three styles that kneeling atlas describes… SP01 Shadow (w/ SS FLGR), a short dust cover 75b .40, and a short dustcover 75b 9mm. The differences are subtle but noticeable.

For me, the SP01 frame reduces muzzle flip and makes followup shots on one target easier. However, as mentioned earlier, the short dust cover 75s feel less front-heavy. I haven't timed transitions between targets, but I like the perceived pointability. I just added a Burris FF3 to the 75b to be my dedicated steel challenge pistol.

[rowdyb]

Kneeling is right. I started with a regular 75b that had been worked over by Automatic Accuracy. I then spend my own money on one of their SP01 Shadow guns worked over for production.

I then got rid of that gun and got a 75 Shadow. I like the 75 Shadow best.

My draw time was slower with the heavier SP01 and I was more likely to over run targets during a transition as the gun once accelerated was harder to slow down. I did love the trigger on my SP01 Shadow, but that isn't an effect of a heavy full length dust cover.

My draw is faster, my splits are faster and my bill drill times are faster with the short dust cover 75 Shadow. All on paper, all documented with a timer.

This may sound blasphemous but here is my take one something I hear and what I noticed from my experience. So grain of salt now......

With the SP01 people say "With the weight out front I get faster follow up shots 'cause of the less muzzle rise." Or something to that effect. What I think is happening is you're not looking at the sights as much and just hammering that second one and the weight of the gun is keeping it roughly where you were anyways. To me, that's not a technique I want to really ingrain. The weight of the gun allows a certain sloppiness if you ask me, that's what people are seeing and perceiving it to be a benefit. Just my opinion. When I shoot really fast, like a bill drill, my splits are .19 to .21 when doing well. Even at that speed which is beyond most the people shooting, it's not like I'm soo fast I'm waiting for the gun to go back into battery again. My trigger finger is never faster than the gun.

Like I said, I think what people perceive as an advantge in the SP01 is something that is really just covering up poor sight picture and such. But hey, its only my opinion and you can't argue with results. Lots of people love it.

If you are a competitive shooter, have mastery in fundamentals of your grip, sight picture and trigger control then you loose nothing in a 75 Shadow to an SP01 and in my case find you have some gains.

Am I splitting hairs talking about hundreths of seconds? Yep. Can I feel the difference in running a 430z gun versus a 39oz gun, oh definitely. But me, in "the lab" with paper, timers, both guns, state matches with both guns and so on I do better with the 75 Shadow.

To be honest this surprised me. I thought the SP01 was gonna be like a secret weapon. That shooting would be magically easier and the gun would never move. That wasnt the case for me.

Would I take it if someone gave me another SP01 shadow? Of course. I have holsters and all that stuff for it, so yeah. I like the platform. I'd even give it another try in competitions and back to back testing again. See if I get the same result. But this second, I probably wouldn't shoot it that much and would see if I could sell/trade it for a 75 Shadow worked over by AA or CZC.

[SpankYa]

Kneeling is right. I started with a regular 75b that had been worked over by Automatic Accuracy. I then spend my own money on one of their SP01 Shadow guns worked over for production.

I then got rid of that gun and got a 75 Shadow. I like the 75 Shadow best.

My draw time was slower with the heavier SP01 and I was more likely to over run targets during a transition as the gun once accelerated was harder to slow down. I did love the trigger on my SP01 Shadow, but that isn't an effect of a heavy full length dust cover.

My draw is faster, my splits are faster and my bill drill times are faster with the short dust cover 75 Shadow. All on paper, all documented with a timer.

This may sound blasphemous but here is my take one something I hear and what I noticed from my experience. So grain of salt now......

With the SP01 people say "With the weight out front I get faster follow up shots 'cause of the less muzzle rise." Or something to that effect. What I think is happening is you're not looking at the sights as much and just hammering that second one and the weight of the gun is keeping it roughly where you were anyways. To me, that's not a technique I want to really ingrain. The weight of the gun allows a certain sloppiness if you ask me, that's what people are seeing and perceiving it to be a benefit. Just my opinion. When I shoot really fast, like a bill drill, my splits are .19 to .21 when doing well. Even at that speed which is beyond most the people shooting, it's not like I'm soo fast I'm waiting for the gun to go back into battery again. My trigger finger is never faster than the gun.

Like I said, I think what people perceive as an advantge in the SP01 is something that is really just covering up poor sight picture and such. But hey, its only my opinion and you can't argue with results. Lots of people love it.

If you are a competitive shooter, have mastery in fundamentals of your grip, sight picture and trigger control then you loose nothing in a 75 Shadow to an SP01 and in my case find you have some gains.

Am I splitting hairs talking about hundreths of seconds? Yep. Can I feel the difference in running a 430z gun versus a 39oz gun, oh definitely. But me, in "the lab" with paper, timers, both guns, state matches with both guns and so on I do better with the 75 Shadow.

To be honest this surprised me. I thought the SP01 was gonna be like a secret weapon. That shooting would be magically easier and the gun would never move. That wasnt the case for me.

Would I take it if someone gave me another SP01 shadow? Of course. I have holsters and all that stuff for it, so yeah. I like the platform. I'd even give it another try in competitions and back to back testing again. See if I get the same result. But this second, I probably wouldn't shoot it that much and would see if I could sell/trade it for a 75 Shadow worked over by AA or CZC.

Rowdy, thank you for the in-depth assessment. I am waiting for an SP-01 Shadow Custom from CZC as a duplicate backup. While I wait, I will buy the CZ 75 Shadow Custom that's avail now. Looking forward to trying the short dust cover!!!

Lester

[Czhase]

Kneeling is right. I started with a regular 75b that had been worked over by Automatic Accuracy. I then spend my own money on one of their SP01 Shadow guns worked over for production.

I then got rid of that gun and got a 75 Shadow. I like the 75 Shadow best.

My draw time was slower with the heavier SP01 and I was more likely to over run targets during a transition as the gun once accelerated was harder to slow down. I did love the trigger on my SP01 Shadow, but that isn't an effect of a heavy full length dust cover.

My draw is faster, my splits are faster and my bill drill times are faster with the short dust cover 75 Shadow. All on paper, all documented with a timer.

This may sound blasphemous but here is my take one something I hear and what I noticed from my experience. So grain of salt now......

With the SP01 people say "With the weight out front I get faster follow up shots 'cause of the less muzzle rise." Or something to that effect. What I think is happening is you're not looking at the sights as much and just hammering that second one and the weight of the gun is keeping it roughly where you were anyways. To me, that's not a technique I want to really ingrain. The weight of the gun allows a certain sloppiness if you ask me, that's what people are seeing and perceiving it to be a benefit. Just my opinion. When I shoot really fast, like a bill drill, my splits are .19 to .21 when doing well. Even at that speed which is beyond most the people shooting, it's not like I'm soo fast I'm waiting for the gun to go back into battery again. My trigger finger is never faster than the gun.

Like I said, I think what people perceive as an advantge in the SP01 is something that is really just covering up poor sight picture and such. But hey, its only my opinion and you can't argue with results. Lots of people love it.

If you are a competitive shooter, have mastery in fundamentals of your grip, sight picture and trigger control then you loose nothing in a 75 Shadow to an SP01 and in my case find you have some gains.

Am I splitting hairs talking about hundreths of seconds? Yep. Can I feel the difference in running a 430z gun versus a 39oz gun, oh definitely. But me, in "the lab" with paper, timers, both guns, state matches with both guns and so on I do better with the 75 Shadow.

To be honest this surprised me. I thought the SP01 was gonna be like a secret weapon. That shooting would be magically easier and the gun would never move. That wasnt the case for me.

Would I take it if someone gave me another SP01 shadow? Of course. I have holsters and all that stuff for it, so yeah. I like the platform. I'd even give it another try in competitions and back to back testing again. See if I get the same result. But this second, I probably wouldn't shoot it that much and would see if I could sell/trade it for a 75 Shadow worked over by AA or CZC.

Any difference in reload time beveled vs non beveled mag well?

[alma]

Shouldn't be a difference in time, just consistency.

[rowdyb]

Here I am with the short dust cover shadow, mine does not have a beveled magwell like the SP01 I had did. I do wish it did though....

Slide lock reloads, shot to shot in 1.55. So to me, no loss in time. Now, when I put a real magwell on any of them I gain another .2 of a second if I've really dialed.

Again, I primarily shoot IDPA so most of my times and practices are slide lock reloads. Speed reloads are in the .95 to 1.05 time for me if all goes well. Again, the time tells me I'm not losing anything.

[bigdave24]

I shoot a 75 shadow in Idpa and an sp-01 shadow in uspsa. They're pretty similar. I think the sp-01 shadow does have a bit less muzzle flip. I don't know if I shoot it any better though. Both great guns.

[rowdyb]

Yep both great guns. Maybe I expected too much out of the SP01 Shadow......... I'm sure I'll end up with another one the end of this year.

For me, my splits weren't better with the SP01 and my second shot on a target wasn't any better. But my draw was definitely slower and the gun took more effort to move around. (I'm only 140lbs and not that muscley)

So for me, if my times aren't better and my hits aren't better with the SP01 then I'm choosing the 75 shadow as my draw is better, my transitions are more sure and I experience less fatigue shooting a lighter gun.

To anyone also lucky enough to have both I say shoot bill drills, cold, back to back with each gun. That's how I'd decide which one to shoot. You get a draw and lots of fast follow up shots in that drill. A good blend to see what you think about the gun and an accurate way to test how you'll shoot it in competition.

Going through my training notebook it reads like this for bill drills.

for 75B. 2.23, 1point down. 2.16 sec. 2pnts dwn. so didn't shoot a clean one till later in the session, 2.80 clean. this was July 2nd, 2014 Safety on, SA trigger.

for SP01 Shadow 2.60sec, zero down. 2.60 zero down. 2.62sec 1pnt dwn. this was March 13, 2014. Safety on, SA trigger.

for 75 Shadow 2.53 sec. zero down. 2.44sec. zero down. 2.41 sec zero down. This was July 28th, 2014 and starting with a DA first pull.

[RNA]

Shadow Line! Yeah!!! Too bad CZ made, like, three of them and probably aren't going to make anymore. It was the perfect gun for me: scalloped slide (no rail showing past the short dust cover frame), short steel frame with the upswept beaver tail and standard trigger system. Since they are next to vaporware, i settled for the 75 Omega, which ain't too shabby if you all me -- and less than half the price!!

[MikeRush]

Saturday I will bring my poor man's Shadow Line to Norco if you want to try it. It has all of the features I need and admire (short dust cover, scalloped slide, no firing pin block) and none of those unnecessary extras they upcharge you for like sights you can see, a smooth and predictable trigger, a finish, nice grips, a mag button you can reach, or the beveled magwell.

Pre B 75 transitional FTW...

[SISIG]

I have both and I shot different load for each, my 75 Shadow love heavy bullet, 135-147 gr soft shooting no muzzle flip at all while Sp01 Shadow I like it with 124gr pretty flat shooting.

Rowdy, I like your point that we do get lazy sometimes, that I caught myself not front sight focus but target focus with my Spo1.

I like my 75 Shadow T for IDPA but use SP01 for USPSA.

[Akacala]

I have a 75 shadow custom target I got for IDPA, then later picked up a "used" sp01 shadow (maybe 50 rounds) at a local gun shop to have as a back up, or use the 75 as a back up after I worked up the SP01. I like the 75 better as well. I don't notice a huge difference when shooting 130 pf ammo between the two when it comes to recoil, but the 75 seems to handle better for me. I'll be shooting it at WA state and maybe WI state this year - but then I'll stick with revolvers for the next year.....If I can manage to keep the CZs in the safe.

[Quack]

I have a 75 shadow custom target I got for IDPA, then later picked up a "used" sp01 shadow (maybe 50 rounds) at a local gun shop to have as a back up, or use the 75 as a back up after I worked up the SP01. I like the 75 better as well. I don't notice a huge difference when shooting 130 pf ammo between the two when it comes to recoil, but the 75 seems to handle better for me. I'll be shooting it at WA state and maybe WI state this year - but then I'll stick with revolvers for the next year.....If I can manage to keep the CZs in the safe.

You can send the CZ's to me

[1911aow]

I think it really depends on the shooter and especially his or her stature.

We have two ladies who bought Shadows in our little club. We recommended Shadows to both of them thinking that the weight would be better in helping them with recoil control and faster follow up shots. There are some other added benefits to theShadows such as the sights and front cocking serations that made it easier to rack and the extended mag release that made it easier to reach for their smaller hands.

The one lady is small and petite and the other is a "bigger" girl. They both shoot the Shadows well, but we found that the smaller lady especially, got really tired on the long 32 round courses with lots of targets and transitions.

We had the smaller lady shoot the same match twice. once with her Shadow and the next day with her husbands Pre-B 75. The Pre-b 75 is fitted with a set of CZC sights and the trigger has been cleaned up and smoothed as much as IPSC allows.

She shot the Pre-B 75 much better than the Shadow and did so much better with it that she now shoots it exclusively. She does have a slight bit more movement during recoil, but she handled the lighter gun so much better than the Shadow, that the little more exagerated muzzle lift/flip is easily overcome by the increase in draw speed, transitions and the fact that she does not become as fatigued during long courses.

For the slightly bigger girl the difference was not as pronounced, but she also commented that the lighter gun was slightly more "busy" during recoil, but that she was able to move it around much better and faster between targets.

I think for the average sized and bigger male the difference will probably not be as much, but it definetely plays a role for those smaller of stature and should be considered.

[motosapiens]

With the SP01 people say "With the weight out front I get faster follow up shots 'cause of the less muzzle rise." Or something to that effect. What I think is happening is you're not looking at the sights as much and just hammering that second one and the weight of the gun is keeping it roughly where you were anyways.

I disagree. I shoot a 75 and trying a friend's sp01 it was pretty obvious the sights were moving less, so I was waiting less and not having to worry as much about alignment. I'm quite certain you do actually shoot the lighter gun better, but that doesn't mean all the GM's with sp01's are just double-tapping a single sight picture and getting lucky.

an sp01 is still lighter than a 1911, so the extra weight probably doesn't make much diff to folks who shoot alot of heavier guns.

Certainly worth trying each one tho.

[SpankYa]

Thanks for all of the opinions and experiences. I called Stuart yesterday to order the CZ 75 Shadow Custom and hope to receive it soon. I'll report back any interested findings when I shoot it back to back with my SP-01 version of the same gun.

Lester

[Magsz]

With the SP01 people say "With the weight out front I get faster follow up shots 'cause of the less muzzle rise." Or something to that effect. What I think is happening is you're not looking at the sights as much and just hammering that second one and the weight of the gun is keeping it roughly where you were anyways.

I disagree. I shoot a 75 and trying a friend's sp01 it was pretty obvious the sights were moving less, so I was waiting less and not having to worry as much about alignment. I'm quite certain you do actually shoot the lighter gun better, but that doesn't mean all the GM's with sp01's are just double-tapping a single sight picture and getting lucky.

an sp01 is still lighter than a 1911, so the extra weight probably doesn't make much diff to folks who shoot alot of heavier guns.

Certainly worth trying each one tho.

They're pretty close in weight...

I dont think any GM's are running around and not using their sights. I think the original poster was on to something. A heavier gun allows the end user to use LESS grip to get the sights to return to their original position.