Will I be able to shoot an open gun faster?

[Mat Price]

Shooting a dot gun is faster for 2 reasons: first, the open division allows you to use a race holster which is much faster than drawing from a regular holster and 2) dot on target = pull the trigger, no lining up 2 different things in 2 different planes

This really isn't quite true, while it may help sell a lot of race holsters the time difference is not as significant as you'd think...plus race holsters are allowed in all divisions in IPSC and the Limited divisions of USPSA. I've put all my guns and holsters on the clock and I can draw my Glock out of a 6004 duty holster within a tenth of a second of what I can draw my race gun.

On point 2 its the target focus used for every shot that makes the dot guns faster and the difference increases with distance/difficulty of shot. At 5m the time between any of the divisions is going to be minimal. At 25m its going to be significant.

+100

[Mat Price]

Hello: I suggest you try an open pistol and see how it works for you. Shooting a dot gun changes your focus to the target not the dot. You bring the dot to the target. Shooting with both eyes open like a shotgun helps also. One of the good things about shooting a dot for a while is that you can shoot an iron sighted gun faster. Kinda weird and hard to explain but it does. Thanks, Eric

Not to hard to explain Eric. I find because I have to see so much faster to stay competitive in open those skills translate the same to irons. At 5yards I can run my production gun almost as fast as I can my open gun. As the distance increases the speed begins to differ exponentially. For example I run the Enos transition drill 3 seconds slower at ten yards with my production gun than my open.

[rwagner24]

Ok what size dot do you guys like to use. From what I was reading 8 is a good place to start. At least with a cmore you can change them easily. I only shoot steel challenge and some falling steel.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: I am using a 12MOA dot in my C-More. I turn it up for fast/close targets and turn it down some for those long tight shots. My 22 steel pistol I am using a 16MOA dot turned down slightly. Thanks, Eric

[kneelingatlas]

Ok what size dot do you guys like to use. From what I was reading 8 is a good place to start. At least with a cmore you can change them easily. I only shoot steel challenge and some falling steel.

Honestly, I have a few 8s, a six and a four and can't remember which is which. The max intensity is different from sight to sight and I control the size of the dot with the click switch: all the way up for hosed stages, turned down for long shots.

[rwagner24]

Ok I think 8 will be a safe start. Can always change later.

[Mat Price]

I shoot an 8

[38supPat]

8 typically

[Nimitz]

ok, I won't argue the point but I think the difference has more to do with the level of shooter than anything else... I think you're right for a Master class open shooter who also happens to be an A/M class Production shooter ... I watched Ben Stoeger routinely do .85 sec draws during a 2 day class. How many open shooters can do that on command?" The difference? He's a world class shooter and 3-time national Champion ... however, I think for the rank & file shooter there is a difference in how fast they can draw from a Production holster than a race holster. Even if it's only a few tenths, that is significant over time ...

[rwagner24]

The equipment dosent make the shooter. I went through JJ Racaza's class a few months ago. At the end we wanted to see him shoot. He borrowed one of the students glock and holster. He ran smoke and hope in 1.89. This gun had a factory trigger and factory sights. Any of those top guys could grab the biggest pos of the shelf and smoke you. It all comes down to practice, and you have to practice the right things. If you are practicing bad habits you'll never improve.

[38supPat]

ok, I won't argue the point but I think the difference has more to do with the level of shooter than anything else... I think you're right for a Master class open shooter who also happens to be an A/M class Production shooter ... I watched Ben Stoeger routinely do .85 sec draws during a 2 day class. How many open shooters can do that on command?" The difference? He's a world class shooter and 3-time national Champion ... however, I think for the rank & file shooter there is a difference in how fast they can draw from a Production holster than a race holster. Even if it's only a few tenths, that is significant over time ...

Again this belief probably sells a lot of race holsters but it's not borne out by anything I've seen. Most people lose time getting their hand to the gun and forming a proper grip (most non race holsters like Bladetechs, Ghost Stinger, Blackhawk cqc etc. allow a full grip on the gun) and from the holster to the target, and I dont mean removing the gun from the holster but rather the track and speed that the gun moves to the target. The time difference removing the gun is next to nothing. But people will buy a race holster in the belief that the money spent there will get them some overall improvement. The only reason I use a raceholster in Open is because of the scopemount. All other divisions I use a bladetech.

Add to this the small amount of time overall in a stage that the draw takes up and the difference in overall stage time between open and other divisions is negligible. Somewhere here I put up a long post showing the math on where people lose the most time on a stage and what to work on to improve your scores and draws was near the bottom of the list with splits on target. Transitions and movement are far more important and I would add to that the biggest difference between open and other divisions is splits and transitions due to the target focus you use with the dot.

[IHMSA15151]

8 MOA Dot for me.

[rwagner24]

You guys are great! Might as well throw this one in there. What lb trigger u guys shooting? My limited gun is 2.5.

[38supPat]

I'm finding for me that the weight is less important than the feel. That being said I dont think I'd go over 2.5lbs.I've gone as light as 1.5 and my current trigger is probably right around 2lbs.

[kneelingatlas]

You guys are great! Might as well throw this one in there. What lb trigger u guys shooting? My limited gun is 2.5.

It's all about preference; I came from Olympic style rapid fire pistol with a 47g trigger (yes, that's 1.7oz!) so I'm pretty comfortable with the 1# 7oz trigger on my CZ

[Lubecktech]

For what it is worth I just put a Burris FastFire II on my M&P 40 with the intent of building a open gun and here are my initial Impressions;

Like anything there is a definate learning curve! At first I was having a problem finding the dot but after a couple of hours of dryfire I began to get the hang of it. I used my shot timer set to random start with a par time of 3 seconds the idea being not to beat the timer but to have a "time frame" to work within. As I progressed I worked on form and smoothness of draw from a Kydex holster then even though I was on the target I would wait for the par beep to break the shot so as to let the muscle memory sink in. At the range I discovered the next part of the curve was going to be recoil management - when you break the shot the dot disappears!! To help with this I just did a bunch of slow 2 shot pairs using the shot timer at random start with no par time. My goal was just to relax and have fun watching the dot bounce and observing what was going on. Eventually I got the flow of what was going on and began to manage the dot pretty well - not fast but making hits and controlling more consecutive shots. My times were slower than usual but I am new to this and I feel that is to be expected at first. What I found amazing when I picked up my M&P 9L I was shooting better than I had ever shot before!! Managed to do a couple of 10yard Bill Drills with the 9L in sub 3.5 second times. Normally on a really good day I might do that in less than 4.5 sceonds! Maybe I'll never be able to compete well in open classes with this gun when I get it finished but I am certain it will help me to shoot better with my stock M&P 9L.

[rwagner24]

Very cool

[BeerBaron]

Shooting a dot gun is faster for 2 reasons: first, the open division allows you to use a race holster which is much faster than drawing from a regular holster and 2) dot on target = pull the trigger, no lining up 2 different things in 2 different planes

This really isn't quite true, while it may help sell a lot of race holsters the time difference is not as significant as you'd think...plus race holsters are allowed in all divisions in IPSC and the Limited divisions of USPSA. I've put all my guns and holsters on the clock and I can draw my Glock out of a 6004 duty holster within a tenth of a second of what I can draw my race gun.

On point 2 its the target focus used for every shot that makes the dot guns faster and the difference increases with distance/difficulty of shot. At 5m the time between any of the divisions is going to be minimal. At 25m its going to be significant.

I tend to agree. since I shoot IPSC production we can use race holsters or duty holsters. the difference between drawing from a bladetech duty type bucket holster or a DAA race master or H&S CW5 is pretty insignificant. I prefer the race holsters but mainly because they give less holster wear on the gun than because I can draw any faster from it.

[jhernandez]

The equipment dosent make the shooter. I went through JJ Racaza's class a few months ago. At the end we wanted to see him shoot. He borrowed one of the students glock and holster. He ran smoke and hope in 1.89. This gun had a factory trigger and factory sights. Any of those top guys could grab the biggest pos of the shelf and smoke you. It all comes down to practice, and you have to practice the right things. If you are practicing bad habits you'll never improve.

Sorry, no offense intended but it seems that you already know the answer to your original question .

[rwagner24]

Yeah it sounds like it......

[IHMSA15151]

The equipment dosent make the shooter. I went through JJ Racaza's class a few months ago. At the end we wanted to see him shoot. He borrowed one of the students glock and holster. He ran smoke and hope in 1.89. This gun had a factory trigger and factory sights. Any of those top guys could grab the biggest pos of the shelf and smoke you. It all comes down to practice, and you have to practice the right things. If you are practicing bad habits you'll never improve.

Sorry, no offense intended but it seems that you already know the answer to your original question .

Yeah it sounds like it......

That may be true but I figure it never hurts to hear other peoples opinions. My "speed shooting" experience is minimal and I gain a lot just reading many of the posts here. I know some are just personal opinion and some you have to "take with a grain of salt" but most of the info on here can be put to good use sooner or later.

[kneelingatlas]

The equipment dosent make the shooter. I went through JJ Racaza's class a few months ago. At the end we wanted to see him shoot. He borrowed one of the students glock and holster. He ran smoke and hope in 1.89. This gun had a factory trigger and factory sights. Any of those top guys could grab the biggest pos of the shelf and smoke you. It all comes down to practice, and you have to practice the right things. If you are practicing bad habits you'll never improve.

Sorry, no offense intended but it seems that you already know the answer to your original question .

Yeah it sounds like it......

But that wasn't your original question... Your original question was not "will an Open gun make me a GM?" or "will I be able to shoot Smoke and Hope Faster than JJ Racaza if I shoot an Open gun?" it was "Will I be able to shoot an open gun faster?"

And I still say the answer is yes, with a reasonable amount of proficiency you will shoot an Open gun faster than a Limited gun, a Production gun, a Single Stack or a Revolver. You will not achieve a higher classification, be cause you cannot reasonably expect your abilities relative to other shooters to change, but if you could draw and shoot six As in six seconds with a Limited gun, you will very likely be able to draw and shoot six A's in less than six seconds with an Open gun.

If this were not objectively true classifiers would not have different HHF for Open than they do for Limited, but they do and they're higher because the top Open shooters will score a higher hit factor on any given stage than the top Limited shooters because Open guns have a competitive advantage over Limited guns. This has nothing to do with any particular shooter being really fast with a Limited gun, chances are that particular shooter is even faster with an Open gun.

[buss544]

Shooting a dot gun is faster for 2 reasons: first, the open division allows you to use a race holster which is much faster than drawing from a regular holster and 2) dot on target = pull the trigger, no lining up 2 different things in 2 different planes

This really isn't quite true, while it may help sell a lot of race holsters the time difference is not as significant as you'd think...plus race holsters are allowed in all divisions in IPSC and the Limited divisions of USPSA. I've put all my guns and holsters on the clock and I can draw my Glock out of a 6004 duty holster within a tenth of a second of what I can draw my race gun.

On point 2 its the target focus used for every shot that makes the dot guns faster and the difference increases with distance/difficulty of shot. At 5m the time between any of the divisions is going to be minimal. At 25m its going to be significant.

I tend to agree. since I shoot IPSC production we can use race holsters or duty holsters. the difference between drawing from a bladetech duty type bucket holster or a DAA race master or H&S CW5 is pretty insignificant. I prefer the race holsters but mainly because they give less holster wear on the gun than because I can draw any faster from it.

The difference for me is that my open gun will not fit into a traditional holster.

[BeerBaron]

Shooting a dot gun is faster for 2 reasons: first, the open division allows you to use a race holster which is much faster than drawing from a regular holster and 2) dot on target = pull the trigger, no lining up 2 different things in 2 different planes

This really isn't quite true, while it may help sell a lot of race holsters the time difference is not as significant as you'd think...plus race holsters are allowed in all divisions in IPSC and the Limited divisions of USPSA. I've put all my guns and holsters on the clock and I can draw my Glock out of a 6004 duty holster within a tenth of a second of what I can draw my race gun.

On point 2 its the target focus used for every shot that makes the dot guns faster and the difference increases with distance/difficulty of shot. At 5m the time between any of the divisions is going to be minimal. At 25m its going to be significant.

I tend to agree. since I shoot IPSC production we can use race holsters or duty holsters. the difference between drawing from a bladetech duty type bucket holster or a DAA race master or H&S CW5 is pretty insignificant. I prefer the race holsters but mainly because they give less holster wear on the gun than because I can draw any faster from it.

The difference for me is that my open gun will not fit into a traditional holster.

lol, where there is that too! not many kydex duty holsters will enable you to stuff a 6inch open gun with comp and scope in there!

*now waiting for someone to post a pic of open gun in duty holster.....

[Mat Price]

Put it to you like this I shot fluffy's revenge 2 Sunday in 3.1 seconds dropped two point for a whopping 12.109 h/f that's big ole 91% in open lol..

Compare that to production or limited and you will see my point

I thought for sure I had my first official Gm classifier... Fail lmao

Edited July 22, 2014 by Mat Price