Ken_Bird Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 I have introduced a new shooter to Steel Challenge, as you might guess he is hooked. Last week he and his son went a bought a Dillon 650, Brass, Primers, bullets, powder. He even bought a book on reloading. Now being fair, he did most things right. He got a loading table for Win 231, SPP Win, 124 RN, and 1K pieces of brass. He email me his charge load of powder, which was correct, and set his OAL correct. Then he loaded the brass he bought. Went to the range the weekend and shot some. His problem was squibs. He says in 200 rounds he had 11. Thank god he was shooting with an experienced shooter. We have now stopped his loading on his own and he will be coming to my house for instruction. I am sure after reading this you know what I will be drilling into his head. Ok, so now he has 800 round loaded. We do not know which got powder, and which did not. Anyone got a method or idea to check these instead of possible squib. It quite a bit of money to just throw in he trash, but if that is required then that is it. I have never had the occasion to have this issue. Thanks in advance for any help you may add. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njl Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 I don't know of a reliable method other than either shooting them or disassembling them. With that load, he's probably only got somewhere very roughly around 4gr of powder in the cartridges. The combined weight variance in bullet and brass is probably more than the powder charge...so a light cartridge might have powder and just be a light piece of brass, and a heavy one might be empty, but have a heavy piece of brass. I was in a similar situation a while back with a batch of 230gr .45acp. After 3 squibs, I decided to disassemble the rest of the batch. Every one of them had the expected powder charge. Before disassembling them, I did weigh all of them, and separate them into groups by weight. I had a few light ones I suspected were empty. They weren't. Some cartridges have enough air space in them that you can shake them and hear or feel the powder moving around. 9mm is not one of them. I wonder, if you had a miniature stethoscope, if you could tap on the brass and hear a difference between full and empty cartridges? Tell him to go buy 2 impact bullet pullers (from Dillon...for the lifetime warranty ) and spend some quality time with his son disassembling suspect ammo. The real question though is, where the heck did he find 231 powder? One does not just go out and buy pistol powder on a whim these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
56hawk Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Shoot them or pull them, not too many other options. Could try weighing them, but I bet the variations in bullet and brass is going to be more than the powder charge. By the way, how did he get squibs on a 650? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njl Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 By the way, how did he get squibs on a 650? That's a good question too. Do you know for sure if the squibs were powderless or just failed to ignite the powder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 His problem was squibs. in 200 rounds he had 11. Its quite a bit of money to throw in the trash I wouldn't throw away 800 rounds, or break them down. I'd use them for practice, recognizing that you don't want to shoot so fast you don't detect a pop instead of a BANG. I'd load up 50 rounds, and test them - using extreme caution during the reloading process to ensure powder falls into EVERY case. And, use these for matches, if they all go BANG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 First I'd verify they were squibs and not just light strikes? If they were all actual squibs, primer lit, bullet stuck somewhere in the barrel then i'd do like jack said and use them for practice, something like group shooting where you are shooting slow so it's easy to ID a squib ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterthefish Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) As others have said, first ensure they weren't light strikes (seems more likely with a 650). I wouldn't train with ammo that had known squibs. Make dud rounds for that. Pick up a hornady cam-lock bullet puller die. You can disassemble them almost as fast as you loaded them. Doesn't cost much more than a kinetic hammer and much faster than a standard collet puller. Edited May 31, 2014 by peterthefish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonman16 Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 ALL PART OF THE LEARNING CURVE. Be SAFE- - -PULL EM' Back up and start anew UNDER GUIDANCE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee blackman Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 The simplest answer is usually the right one. I had a similar situation with a friend who bought a brand new Square Deal B. I went and set the press up, and everything was running fine. About a year goes buy and out of nowhere he starts getting squibs, and inconsistent powder charges. Turns out he took off the powder hopper, put it back on, and didn't tighten the screws... As a friend, the best thing you can do, is go check out the setup. Check each stage of the press. Make sure things are in the right places. When I set up my Super 1050, I had a second set of eyes read the directions and look over my should to double check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 + 2 or 3 on shooting for practice - slowly - and then follow Lee Blackman's advice as above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimreed1948 Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Load one that you know is good and ready to go. Weigh it. Thats your starting point. Any complete round that weighs less than the known good weight would be suspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasref Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 I shot 125gn LRN with 4.6gn of 231 for a long time never squibbed. I would say it's not the load, it's a light strike. I've had some of those. I also have a 550 which gives me the oportunity to look in each case. I'd shoot them at targets (good trigger practice) but not disassemble. Just mark them so you'll know whats what. Slow down on the reloader to maybe 100 per til youre sure of whats coming out the other side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcracco Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Pull them but do it with a collet type puller. Single stage press needed but it would be faster and neater than a kinetic type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njl Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Load one that you know is good and ready to go. Weigh it. Thats your starting point. Any complete round that weighs less than the known good weight would be suspect. See above. That really doesn't work for small pistol loads where your powder charge is only a couple grains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 He needs to learn to look in the case when he is putting the bullet in the case. If he does that he will catch any case without powder. The other option is the Dillon setup that buzzes when there is no powder present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken_Bird Posted June 1, 2014 Author Share Posted June 1, 2014 Well these were my thoughts also. I would slow shoot them, use for zero test any thing but a live match. He says these were squibs, but I was not there. He says they made a small pop noise so was most likely. Thanks guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgj3 Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Agree with those who have said to use the ammo for practice. If they are super new to the games, they need that anyway. If squibs, likely due to set-setup of press or not completing the stroke all the way down and back up. Also, if they missed a primer and had to lower the ram to deal with a crime pocket of anything like that, the they would have cycled the shell plate and be seating a bullet in an empty case. Lots of places for errors with a 650 for a brand new reloader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toyotafrank Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 I had the same issue on my 550. I can only say for me it was two issues. 1. Not looking into the case making sure its got powder. When I loaded AutoComp its hard to see, when I load "flake" style you can see it a lot better. (i picked up an LED light strip from Hornady lights up inside the case very well. 2. I would get in an hurry after refilling primers and turn the plate without powder. I fixed this by clearing the plate with the low primer alarm going off. Once plate is clear I load primers and start loading again. Squibs stink as they get stuck in the barrel... Knock on wood since I have corrected the above in 4,000 no squibs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverBolt Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 See if you can put your eye on the "squib" rounds and verify if they really are squibs. Sounds like he is using reliable good quality components. A 650 is a very reliable machine. The unreliable part of the equation is the handle puller. I don't see how on a 650 he would get random light or no powder drops unless he runs the hopper dry. Maybe not fully seating the primer and getting a light hit? It would be interesting to pull a few rounds and weigh the loads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justsomeguy Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 (edited) All of the above information is valuable and pretty much correct. A 650 will generally not throw less than it is supposed to unless 1) the screws are loose like one poster referred to on an SDB, or 2) the operating rod has not been passed through both of the arms that come off the powder measure, in which case you can get some light throws. But the other thing to look into is the quality of the components themselves. If the powder has been kept dry and in good conditions it should not be a problem even if it is many years old. You can smell it. If It smells "rancid" it may be deteriorating and unusable. The same holds for the primers though there is no "smell test" for those. Make sure they are not exposed to moisture, even excess humidity, or oil. If you pick them up with your fingers and have oil or grease on your hands they could be compromised. Some even say that the oil on your skin can affect them, but I have no proof of this. Just be careful not to introduce contaminants into the process in some way that might in some way affect your components. And yes... a true "squib" is usually referred to as a PARTIAL detonation or sometimes a primer only detonation which generally forces the bullet from the case but does not have enough energy to make it exit the barrel. These are extremely dangerous because another properly firing round following it with that former bullet in the barrel will generally destroy your gun and ruin your day and possibly your hands or eyes. Edited June 2, 2014 by Justsomeguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polizei1 Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Make him pull at least a 100 as a lesson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fxdc Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Ken you said he bought brass, I guess new and same brand. Load a round complete with out powder!!!! Weight it and that's your BASE WEIGHT, to check against the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkocher Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 I have a 650 and am relatively new to reloading. In roughly 5000 rounds, I have had one squib and I know when it happened. It was early on in my learning process when the primers ran out, I decided that I needed to check to make sure that the powder measure was still throwing the correct amount of powder, someone came downstairs and asked me a question, I wasn't paying enough attention. The 650 is a great machine, but the human factor is still there! I now make certain that I look into every case before I place the bullet and haven't had one since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 If they slow shoot them rather than pull them, I would: 1. Strongly recommend that they clearly mark each round (with a sharpie) to distinguish them from other practice ammo. 2. Further strongly recommend, since they are new shooters with the urge to go fast but perhaps without the discipline to "STOP if it POPS", that they only load one and shoot one for this batch (good for accuracy or single shot drills only). 3. Also insist they do a barrel obstruction check for every single squib. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 The five "P's" PULL the handle. PUSH the handle. PICK up a bullet and a new case. PEEK in the primed case. PLACE the bullet and new case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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