Gun Placed on "X"....

[motosapiens]

So....is it a DQ if the gun falls over? For argument's sake let's say it stays on the table, and doesn't ended up pointing in an unsafe direction.

imho, if the gun tips over on the table and is still pointing downrange, it's not a dq. OTOH, if the gun falls off the table, or ends up pointing uprange, then it would probably be a DQ.

Tipping over is not the same as being dropped. Falling off of a table imho *is* the same as being dropped.

[spanky]

So....is it a DQ if the gun falls over? For argument's sake let's say it stays on the table, and doesn't ended up pointing in an unsafe direction.

imho, if the gun tips over on the table and is still pointing downrange, it's not a dq. OTOH, if the gun falls off the table, or ends up pointing uprange, then it would probably be a DQ.

Tipping over is not the same as being dropped. Falling off of a table imho *is* the same as being dropped.

5.3.3 If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or unloading, a competitor drops his

firearm, or causes it to fall, loaded or not.

Edited April 30, 2014 by spanky

[motosapiens]

So....is it a DQ if the gun falls over? For argument's sake let's say it stays on the table, and doesn't ended up pointing in an unsafe direction.

imho, if the gun tips over on the table and is still pointing downrange, it's not a dq. OTOH, if the gun falls off the table, or ends up pointing uprange, then it would probably be a DQ.

Tipping over is not the same as being dropped. Falling off of a table imho *is* the same as being dropped.

5.3.3 If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or unloading, a competitor drops his

firearm, or causes it to fall, loaded or not.

Right. IMHO, tipping over on a surface is NOT the same as 'falling' off of that surface, although I can certainly see how some could argue that distinction.

[BillChunn]

5.3.3 If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or unloading, a competitor drops his

firearm, or causes it to fall, loaded or not.

I don't see a 5.3.3 in the current rulebook. 5.3 Appropriate Dress (and has a 5.3.1) then it skips to 5.4 Eye and Ear Protection. I believe the rule you quoted is 10.5.3 under Match Disqualification - Unsafe Gun Handling.

:-)

BC

[Sarge]

John amidons rulings are gospel whether we like them or not

Edited April 30, 2014 by Sarge

[ac4wordplay]

John amidons rulings are gospel whether we like them or not

Yes, but there is a procedure for a ruling - an e-mail/forum reply doesn't qualify as a ruling. The correspondence posted in this thread is his opinion (unless/until it becomes a ruling by satisfying said procedure). His opinion may well be sufficient for many to follow, but it doesn't carry the weight of a rule and there is no requirement for it to be followed.

[Sarge]

Cool. Didn't know we could ignore dnroi! Thanks for the clarification.

So now I still say you can touch a wall outside a shooting area and be considered outside the shooting area at the start. DNROI said that was a no go but that was just his opinion.

[Sarge]

Then why do we always ask him when there is a rules issue? Just dawned on me that is moot

[Nik Habicht]

Then why do we always ask him when there is a rules issue? Just dawned on me that is moot

Because his job is to offer guidance and help the membership with rules clarifications. His counsel is worth about as much as the counsel of any other RMI. That said, I try to pay attention when any of the instructor corps speak, because you never know when they might learn me something new......

Interpretations -- which are binding -- are issued by DNROI, with the approval of the BOD -- and must be published to be valid......

[Sarge]

So we can game classifiers. Note that is not a question but a statement. I see no need to ask any rules questions anymore personally. It is going to be up to a particular official at any given match to make a call. Maybe this is how it should be. After all it seems to work so well for IDPA right?

[aztecdriver]

So....is it a DQ if the gun falls over? For argument's sake let's say it stays on the table, and doesn't ended up pointing in an unsafe direction.

imho, if the gun tips over on the table and is still pointing downrange, it's not a dq. OTOH, if the gun falls off the table, or ends up pointing uprange, then it would probably be a DQ.

Tipping over is not the same as being dropped. Falling off of a table imho *is* the same as being dropped.

You need to read 10.5.3.1. I would argue that setting the gun so that it could tip over does not qualify as being placed "firmly and securely on " the object. A propped up gun that moves uncontrolled is a dropped gun.

[spanky]

Cool. Didn't know we could ignore dnroi! Thanks for the clarification.

So now I still say you can touch a wall outside a shooting area and be considered outside the shooting area at the start. DNROI said that was a no go but that was just his opinion.

Sarge,

DNROI's opinion is not gospel. His opinion should certainly hold weight but until there are published rulings they are simply just opinions.

edit because i derp'd a word.

Edited May 1, 2014 by spanky

[Chills1994]

I love these threads!

Is "falling" defined in the glossary in the back of the rulebook?

Has the HHF for this classifier ever been officially published?

How about for the other classifiers?

[spanky]

5.3.3 If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or unloading, a competitor drops his

firearm, or causes it to fall, loaded or not.

I don't see a 5.3.3 in the current rulebook. 5.3 Appropriate Dress (and has a 5.3.1) then it skips to 5.4 Eye and Ear Protection. I believe the rule you quoted is 10.5.3 under Match Disqualification - Unsafe Gun Handling.

:-)

BC

Ha. I guess I inadvertently clicked on the Multigun rules but 10.5.3 is where we need to look.

I'd argue that knocking a gun over could be construed as causing it to fall, regardless of whether it hits the ground or just hits the table.

Then again, aztecdriver does bring up a valid point as well.

[spanky]

So we can game classifiers. Note that is not a question but a statement. I see no need to ask any rules questions anymore personally. It is going to be up to a particular official at any given match to make a call. Maybe this is how it should be. After all it seems to work so well for IDPA right?

I understand where you're coming from. I've received opinions from DNROI that have contradicted my (and others) opinions on rules interpretations in the past. That's one of the beauties of our sport. DNROI can't get hit his head one night and decide on a rules change and it suddenly become law.

This should make it easier for your to grasp;

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-rulings-listing.php

Specifically: "Answers to routine questions which do not have the impact of "rulings" are not published on this page."

Edited May 1, 2014 by spanky

[OUshooter]

Bill,

That would be the rule. It would be a dropped gun.

BUT

The classifier book says classifiers are not to be gamed or words to that effect

From the Classifier book:

Every possible effort has been made to ensure that

all the stages in this book are “game proof.” The courses

have been repeatedly reviewed by many people with

hundreds of years of combined practical shooting and

course design experience. These include Range Offic-

ers, Chief Range Officers, Range Masters, Range Master

Instructors, and the Director of the National Range

Officers Institute. The nature of the project is such that

there are probably undetected errors in spite of all that

effort. In most cases the intent of the course will be

obvious. USPSA requests that you honor that intent.

The whole "gamer" has been beat to death. It's not on the shooter if they see something NROI didn't. If the gun stands upright on it's own and the shooter doesn't knock it over via the hand/knee or support apparatus, then "game on".

You are either in the rules or you aren't, there is no "gaming". If the NROI meant laying flat on the support then they should have said so.

[Paul B]

The debate on whether a gun tipping over has been debated on these forums before with somewhat the same result. The strict rule constructionists seem to say "If it tips over and hits the table it has fallen". The freestylers say "it is not a fall but a tip over since the gun was already touching the surface to begin with - it just move because of an external influence". While I believe that we should be as safe as possible calling this a "fall" per the rules is stretching it and is a slippery slope. If it is a fall there are numerous other situations where we could DQ hapless shooters when the start is with the gun in a specific position other than holstered. For example, I have had to put my gun in a box and as I set it down with the butt touching the surface, my hand hits the top of the box and the rest of the gun drops an inch to the surface - DQ or not?

Overall, I think the objection to standing up a gun is actually by those against gaming of every kind and I would advise anyone who has a strict constructionist RO not to stand up their gun.

By the same token if the classifier wants someone to not stand up their gun then the WSB should say so.

By the way, I have a gun that will easily stand up and I have timed it both ways and believe it or not the time difference is actually negligible.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Paul B

[Sarge]

So we can game classifiers. Note that is not a question but a statement. I see no need to ask any rules questions anymore personally. It is going to be up to a particular official at any given match to make a call. Maybe this is how it should be. After all it seems to work so well for IDPA right?

I understand where you're coming from. I've received opinions from DNROI that have contradicted my (and others) opinions on rules interpretations in the past. That's one of the beauties of our sport. DNROI can't get hit his head one night and decide on a rules change and it suddenly become law.

This should make it easier for your to grasp;

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-rulings-listing.php

Specifically: "Answers to routine questions which do not have the impact of "rulings" are not published on this page."

I fail to see how a different interpretation from RM to RM can be called the beauty of our sport. To me it's downright ugly. This essentially turns the rule book into a general list of suggestions

[spanky]

I was more so referring to rules changes and interpretations (regarding questionable or missing answers to potential problems) requiring a board ruling and not a single person's opinion.

Edited May 1, 2014 by spanky

[motosapiens]

So....is it a DQ if the gun falls over? For argument's sake let's say it stays on the table, and doesn't ended up pointing in an unsafe direction.

imho, if the gun tips over on the table and is still pointing downrange, it's not a dq. OTOH, if the gun falls off the table, or ends up pointing uprange, then it would probably be a DQ.

Tipping over is not the same as being dropped. Falling off of a table imho *is* the same as being dropped.

You need to read 10.5.3.1. I would argue that setting the gun so that it could tip over does not qualify as being placed "firmly and securely on " the object. A propped up gun that moves uncontrolled is a dropped gun.

I can see where certain types of people would argue that, but it certainly doesn't fit the definition of 'dropped' that is commonly understood in english. Using the same 'logic' you could say it was dropped if you set it down on it's side and it just moved a liittle. Imho, 10.5.3 pretty clearly backs me up, and suggests to an english-speaker that the gun would have to fall, not just tip over.

What happens if you knock your beer glass when reaching for your steak knife and the beer glass tips over wyile remaining on the table (and spills beer)? Do we say the glass 'fell'? No we say it tipped over. It didn't get dropped and it didn't fall. Otoh, if you knock the glass off of the table so it hits the floor, then you would say it 'fell' or was 'dropped'. The same linguistic nuances apply to a gun on a table.

[Yardbird]

So....is it a DQ if the gun falls over? For argument's sake let's say it stays on the table, and doesn't ended up pointing in an unsafe direction.

imho, if the gun tips over on the table and is still pointing downrange, it's not a dq. OTOH, if the gun falls off the table, or ends up pointing uprange, then it would probably be a DQ.

Tipping over is not the same as being dropped. Falling off of a table imho *is* the same as being dropped.

You need to read 10.5.3.1. I would argue that setting the gun so that it could tip over does not qualify as being placed "firmly and securely on " the object. A propped up gun that moves uncontrolled is a dropped gun.

I can see where certain types of people would argue that, but it certainly doesn't fit the definition of 'dropped' that is commonly understood in english. Using the same 'logic' you could say it was dropped if you set it down on it's side and it just moved a liittle. Imho, 10.5.3 pretty clearly backs me up, and suggests to an english-speaker that the gun would have to fall, not just tip over.

What happens if you knock your beer glass when reaching for your steak knife and the beer glass tips over wyile remaining on the table (and spills beer)? Do we say the glass 'fell'? No we say it tipped over. It didn't get dropped and it didn't fall. Otoh, if you knock the glass off of the table so it hits the floor, then you would say it 'fell' or was 'dropped'. The same linguistic nuances apply to a gun on a table.

Oops, I bumped the glass and caused it to fall over...

[Yardbird]

And to those who keep using the word propped, the gun in question is standing on its own. It is not propped up in any way.

[motosapiens]

So....is it a DQ if the gun falls over? For argument's sake let's say it stays on the table, and doesn't ended up pointing in an unsafe direction.

imho, if the gun tips over on the table and is still pointing downrange, it's not a dq. OTOH, if the gun falls off the table, or ends up pointing uprange, then it would probably be a DQ.

Tipping over is not the same as being dropped. Falling off of a table imho *is* the same as being dropped.

You need to read 10.5.3.1. I would argue that setting the gun so that it could tip over does not qualify as being placed "firmly and securely on " the object. A propped up gun that moves uncontrolled is a dropped gun.

I can see where certain types of people would argue that, but it certainly doesn't fit the definition of 'dropped' that is commonly understood in english. Using the same 'logic' you could say it was dropped if you set it down on it's side and it just moved a liittle. Imho, 10.5.3 pretty clearly backs me up, and suggests to an english-speaker that the gun would have to fall, not just tip over.

What happens if you knock your beer glass when reaching for your steak knife and the beer glass tips over wyile remaining on the table (and spills beer)? Do we say the glass 'fell'? No we say it tipped over. It didn't get dropped and it didn't fall. Otoh, if you knock the glass off of the table so it hits the floor, then you would say it 'fell' or was 'dropped'. The same linguistic nuances apply to a gun on a table.

Oops, I bumped the glass and caused it to fall over...

No, you knocked it over, or tipped it over.

At any rate, even if professor english accepts your colloquial usage of 'fall over', that is not the same as 'fall'. The rule doesn't say you get dq'd if you cause something to 'fall over', but if you cause it to 'fall'.

C'mon, I could use some help on this point from the people who had trouble with the protractor. I'm sure some of them have degrees in english.

Edited May 1, 2014 by motosapiens

[B45C22]

I think the common use of the word fall correlates to height, if only in a small way. A stack of Jenga blocks 5 feet tall falls over. One Jenga block tipped over.

In the instance of a gun and Uspsa rules, I would say that the determining factor is that it never left contact with the surface of the table if it tipped over. If it is knocked off the barrel and comes to rest in a different surface, it fell and should warrant a DQ.

What if you had a shooter run up to the table to grab his gun and instead of looking at the gun as he reached for it he was looking at the targets. He doesn't get a good grasp on the gun and it moves 1" forward while he is grabbing at it but before he has established control over it. That wouldn't be a DQ in my book, but if the same thing happened and the gun fell off of the table, it would.

[Yardbird]

I live in the northeast and have always used and heard fall over for all of my 47 years. It's just as common as tip over and means the same thing.

I think your trying to game the semantics here. :~)