Gun Placed on "X"....

[BillChunn]

For classifier CM 13-07 Double Deal 2 the WSB start position states:

Seated at table facing downrange holding playing cards with both hands and elbows on the table. Loaded firearm is placed on X in center of table with the muzzle pointing down range.

If a competitor were to place his loaded gun so that it touches the "X" mark, the muzzle pointing downrange but it was not laying on it's side, is that a valid position? This particular weapon has a compensator with a flat bottom and the magazine extension had a flat front. The gun was able to "stand" upright with the muzzle pointing downrange albeit it was pointing at the table and the range floor.

What says the collective range officer community? Let him start that way or tell him it has to lay on it's side and stop trying to game the classifier? Is there an applicable rule?

BC

Edited April 28, 2014 by BillChunn

[bikerburgess]

I would say he complied with the WSB so good to go, if they wanted to have it laying flat on the X it would need to say that.

Mike

[CZinSC]

I would say he complied with the WSB so good to go, if they wanted to have it laying flat on the X it would need to say that.

Mike

+1 - What Mike said.

If it doesn't say "handgun laying flat" than game away!

Busy at work, so I can't look up and cite the rule, but I believe if the gun is balance like you said, and after the buzzer the gun falls over ( doesn't have to fall on the ground, just falls on it's side before competitor grabs it ) it is a DQ. Not 100% on that, like i said, trying to pay attention to a conference call that i'm on!

[JAFO]

It complies with the WSB. But as CZ said, it's a risk on the shooter's part. Just like the guy who lays his gun on the edge of the barrel on a "gun is placed on barrel" start, only to miss his grab and knock it on the ground during the COF.

[BillChunn]

+1 - What Mike said.

If it doesn't say "handgun laying flat" than game away!

Busy at work, so I can't look up and cite the rule, but I believe if the gun is balance like you said, and after the buzzer the gun falls over ( doesn't have to fall on the ground, just falls on it's side before competitor grabs it ) it is a DQ. Not 100% on that, like i said, trying to pay attention to a conference call that i'm on!

From the rulebook:

10.5.3 If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or unloading, a competitor drops his handgun or causes it to fall, loaded or not.

Would that be the one used to send him home? It would depend on if the gun fell over after the "Make Ready" command which designates the beginning of the course of fire per 8.3.1. The RO would have to give that command for the shooter to unholster his gun, load it and place it on the table.

BC

Edited April 28, 2014 by BillChunn

[JAFO]

I think the only way they wouldn't get the DQ is if it fell as they were grabbing it, and ALL of the following happens - they were able to pin it to the table, thereby maintaining constant physical contact (10.5.3.1), while keeping the muzzle pointed downrange (10.5.2 via 10.5.3.3), and the safety (if it has one) doesn't get knocked off (10.5.3.4).

[Sarge]

Bill,

That would be the rule. It would be a dropped gun.

BUT

The classifier book says classifiers are not to be gamed or words to that effect

[Sarge]

From the classifier administration book:

In most cases the intent of the course will be

obvious. USPSA requests that you honor that intent.

[Rick88]

My gun will stand on its own as well but I never do it because pointed at the ground in my opinion is not pointed down range.

[Sarge]

pointed at the ground in my opinion is not pointed down range.

Sure it is. Ever shot a stage with targets behind barrels where you shoot practically straight down?

Downrange is anywhere ahead of the 180.

In the Army we had a range command that was keep weapons up and downrange. We always joked about that but it actually meant to not point weapons at the ground downrange or in front of you.

[Rick88]

I still wont do it, pointed at the table and ground doesnt seem like down range as a starting position to me.

[motosapiens]

Downrange is anywhere ahead of the 180.

So if the wsb says 'facing downrange', you can be anywhere in that 180 degrees?

[Sarge]

not you again!!!!

Facing down range is defined and you know that

Downrange is anywhere ahead of the 180.

So if the wsb says 'facing downrange', you can be anywhere in that 180 degrees?

[B45C22]

You may be right, but I would argue my ass off if you tried to DQ a shooter if the wind knocked it over as long as it is still on the table and aimed in a safe direction.

What if it was laying on its side and the wind blew and caused the gun to rotate a little bit, still within the prescribed start position and pointed in a safe direction.

Falling, applies to falling out of the shooters control. Not changing position when the wsb prescribes that the gun be out of the shooters hands.

If the shooter kicked the barrel and the gun went flying, that is falling. The gun going from upright to flat doesn't designate falling.

What if the gun has a thumb rest that is right on the tipping point and the wind causes the gun to go from the three points of contact - magwell, thumb rest, muzzle, to magwell, beaver tail, thumbrest? It changed position, it didn't fall, it never left contact with the prescribed starting position (table). Same same as far as I'm concerned.

I may be wrong, but I'd be willing to spend $100 to find out.

[motosapiens]

not you again!!!!

Facing down range is defined and you know that

Downrange is anywhere ahead of the 180.

So if the wsb says 'facing downrange', you can be anywhere in that 180 degrees?

Ok, so 'facing downrange' means something different than 'pointed downrange'... ?

You may be correct, but I wonder why even specify pointing downrange in that case. It is an immediate dq to point the gun anywhere other than downrange, so to me, specifying 'pointed downrange' implies something a bit more specific.

[motosapiens]

You may be right, but I would argue my ass off if you tried to DQ a shooter if the wind knocked it over as long as it is still on the table and aimed in a safe direction.

What if it was laying on its side and the wind blew and caused the gun to rotate a little bit, still within the prescribed start position and pointed in a safe direction.

Falling, applies to falling out of the shooters control. Not changing position when the wsb prescribes that the gun be out of the shooters hands.

If the shooter kicked the barrel and the gun went flying, that is falling. The gun going from upright to flat doesn't designate falling.

What if the gun has a thumb rest that is right on the tipping point and the wind causes the gun to go from the three points of contact - magwell, thumb rest, muzzle, to magwell, beaver tail, thumbrest? It changed position, it didn't fall, it never left contact with the prescribed starting position (table). Same same as far as I'm concerned.

I may be wrong, but I'd be willing to spend $100 to find out.

I think I am probably with you. Tipping over and staying on the barrel or table doesn't really constitute being dropped or falling.

[BillChunn]

From the classifier administration book:

In most cases the intent of the course will be

obvious. USPSA requests that you honor that intent.

I believe Kevin's find in the classifier administration book covers it. The gun should have never been allowed to stand up as that would be against the "intent of the course". In my opinion, it would represent an advantage gained over laying on the table.

BC

[Sarge]

You may be right, but I would argue my ass off if you tried to DQ a shooter if the wind knocked it over as long as it is still on the table and aimed in a safe direction.

What if it was laying on its side and the wind blew and caused the gun to rotate a little bit, still within the prescribed start position and pointed in a safe direction.

Falling, applies to falling out of the shooters control. Not changing position when the wsb prescribes that the gun be out of the shooters hands.

If the shooter kicked the barrel and the gun went flying, that is falling. The gun going from upright to flat doesn't designate falling.

What if the gun has a thumb rest that is right on the tipping point and the wind causes the gun to go from the three points of contact - magwell, thumb rest, muzzle, to magwell, beaver tail, thumbrest? It changed position, it didn't fall, it never left contact with the prescribed starting position (table). Same same as far as I'm concerned.

I may be wrong, but I'd be willing to spend $100 to find out.

I think I am probably with you. Tipping over and staying on the barrel or table doesn't really constitute being dropped or falling.

Agreed unless the shooter causes it. Could it be argued that by trying to stand a gun up in its nose the shooter caused it to fall?

[motosapiens]

You may be right, but I would argue my ass off if you tried to DQ a shooter if the wind knocked it over as long as it is still on the table and aimed in a safe direction.

What if it was laying on its side and the wind blew and caused the gun to rotate a little bit, still within the prescribed start position and pointed in a safe direction.

Falling, applies to falling out of the shooters control. Not changing position when the wsb prescribes that the gun be out of the shooters hands.

If the shooter kicked the barrel and the gun went flying, that is falling. The gun going from upright to flat doesn't designate falling.

What if the gun has a thumb rest that is right on the tipping point and the wind causes the gun to go from the three points of contact - magwell, thumb rest, muzzle, to magwell, beaver tail, thumbrest? It changed position, it didn't fall, it never left contact with the prescribed starting position (table). Same same as far as I'm concerned.

I may be wrong, but I'd be willing to spend $100 to find out.

I think I am probably with you. Tipping over and staying on the barrel or table doesn't really constitute being dropped or falling.

Agreed unless the shooter causes it. Could it be argued that by trying to stand a gun up in its nose the shooter caused it to fall?

my point was that just tipping over seems to be different from falling. At least it could be argued that way pretty effectively.

I think the real key is what you posted earlier about requesting that shooters honor the intent of the classifiers. I wouldn't quibble if someone used that and just said "no, the gun has to be lying on its side, like everyone else does it."

[Olivers_AR]

Yes, for example if the slide rack on an Open gun "props" it up, still good to go. If the shooter bumps the table and it falls off or pointing at the shooter, breaks the 180, etc DQ.

For classifier CM 13-07 Double Deal 2 the WSB start position states:

Seated at table facing downrange holding playing cards with both hands and elbows on the table. Loaded firearm is placed on X in center of table with the muzzle pointing down range.

If a competitor were to place his loaded gun so that it touches the "X" mark, the muzzle pointing downrange but it was not laying on it's side, is that a valid position? This particular weapon has a compensator with a flat bottom and the magazine extension had a flat front. The gun was able to "stand" upright with the muzzle pointing downrange albeit it was pointing at the table and the range floor.

What says the collective range officer community? Let him start that way or tell him it has to lay on it's side and stop trying to game the classifier? Is there an applicable rule?

BC

[mhs]

You may be right, but I would argue my ass off if you tried to DQ a shooter if the wind knocked it over as long as it is still on the table and aimed in a safe direction.

What if it was laying on its side and the wind blew and caused the gun to rotate a little bit, still within the prescribed start position and pointed in a safe direction.

Falling, applies to falling out of the shooters control. Not changing position when the wsb prescribes that the gun be out of the shooters hands.

If the shooter kicked the barrel and the gun went flying, that is falling. The gun going from upright to flat doesn't designate falling.

What if the gun has a thumb rest that is right on the tipping point and the wind causes the gun to go from the three points of contact - magwell, thumb rest, muzzle, to magwell, beaver tail, thumbrest? It changed position, it didn't fall, it never left contact with the prescribed starting position (table). Same same as far as I'm concerned.

I may be wrong, but I'd be willing to spend $100 to find out.

I think I am probably with you. Tipping over and staying on the barrel or table doesn't really constitute being dropped or falling.

Agreed unless the shooter causes it. Could it be argued that by trying to stand a gun up in its nose the shooter caused it to fall?

my point was that just tipping over seems to be different from falling. At least it could be argued that way pretty effectively.

I think the real key is what you posted earlier about requesting that shooters honor the intent of the classifiers. I wouldn't quibble if someone used that and just said "no, the gun has to be lying on its side, like everyone else does it."

This is the beauty of USPSA. The shooter realizes that having the gun balanced upright is faster. He realizes that it is less stable, and that if it falls, he will be DQ'd. He weighs the risks. Freestyle.

[JAFO]

This is the beauty of USPSA. The shooter realizes that having the gun balanced upright is faster. He realizes that it is less stable, and that if it falls, he will be DQ'd. He weighs the risks. Freestyle.

Classifiers are rarely what I'd consider freestyle.

[Shadow]

For classifier CM 13-07 Double Deal 2 the WSB start position states:

Seated at table facing downrange holding playing cards with both hands and elbows on the table. Loaded firearm is placed on X in center of table with the muzzle pointing down range.

If a competitor were to place his loaded gun so that it touches the "X" mark, the muzzle pointing downrange but it was not laying on it's side, is that a valid position? This particular weapon has a compensator with a flat bottom and the magazine extension had a flat front. The gun was able to "stand" upright with the muzzle pointing downrange albeit it was pointing at the table and the range floor.

What says the collective range officer community? Let him start that way or tell him it has to lay on it's side and stop trying to game the classifier? Is there an applicable rule?

BC

I say let him start.

I would say he complied with the WSB so good to go, if they wanted to have it laying flat on the X it would need to say that.

Mike

I agree.

From the classifier administration book:

In most cases the intent of the course will be

obvious. USPSA requests that you honor that intent.

If it said gun flat on table, it would be obvious, as written, its not.

From the classifier administration book:

In most cases the intent of the course will be

obvious. USPSA requests that you honor that intent.

I believe Kevin's find in the classifier administration book covers it. The gun should have never been allowed to stand up as that would be against the "intent of the course". In my opinion, it would represent an advantage gained over laying on the table.

BC

Did you write the stage description? How do you know its against the intent of the course? How do you know the course designers intent wasn't to allow the shooter to position his gun how he wants? If it were his intent to have the gun flat, he should have said it to "make it obvious."

[BillChunn]

Did you write the stage description? How do you know its against the intent of the course? How do you know the course designers intent wasn't to allow the shooter to position his gun how he wants? If it were his intent to have the gun flat, he should have said it to "make it obvious."

No James, it appears that Russel Cluver designed this classifier. If you believe that was the intent of the classifier designer, go right ahead.

If you refer back to my statement, it reads "In my opinion..." but the bottom line is that my opinion doesn't matter. Neither does yours. The only one that counts is John Amidon. Let's see what he says....

BC

Edited April 29, 2014 by BillChunn

[Rick88]

I must be missing something, I still dont get how a gun pointed at the table and straight down to the ground is considered pointed downrange....