Is tv is a DQ?

[Sarge]

And this is how these threads start in the first place. RO's who make decisions without rules to back it up.

And what do IPSC rules have to do with the price of eggs in China?

[DavidSnethkamp]

Very true.

USPSA 2014

8.3.6 “If You Are Finished, Unload And Show Clear” or “Unload and

Show Clear” – If the competitor has finished shooting, he must lower

his handgun and present it for inspection by the Range Officer with the

muzzle pointed down range, magazine removed, slide locked or held

open, and chamber empty. Revolvers must be presented with the

cylinder swung out and empty.

If a competitor has been stopped by the Range Officer, they will be

given “Unload and show clear” as the command.

[motosapiens]

Would the answer be different if he had given the ULSC command? Given that receiving the command doesn't prevent a competitor from continuing to shoot?

IMHO, no. While I am actually removing the magazine from the gun, I am unloading, and if a round goes off then, bad for me. Once the magazine is removed, I am no longer unloading if I choose to shoot. Now if I reach to rack the slide and fire a shot while doing that, different story.

[frag316]

He removed the magazine and fired a shot...shots fired during the unloading or reloading of a firearm is a DQ.

You're allowed to fire shots after "ULSC" but not after if clear hammer down... but this isn't relevant to this in my view.

In the circumstances you described, I would have DQ'd him as well....10.4.3

Sorry, you've missed something very important--the RO hadn't even given him ULSC. He was still on the course of fire and is allowed to make safe shots as he sees fit until given either a stop or "If clear, etc."

Additionally, 10.4.3 is not applicable. If you look at the range communication section:

8.3.6 “If You Are Finished, Unload And Show Clear” or “Unload and Show Clear” – If the competitor has finished shooting, he must lower his handgun and present it for inspection by the Range Officer with the muzzle pointed down range, magazine removed, slide locked or held open, and chamber empty. Revolvers must be presented with the cylinder swung out and empty.

(Emphasis mine)

Until the competitor does those actions, he/she is not considered to have finished shooting, regardless of where they aim the gun, unless their shot is deemed unsafe--in which case the DQ is for unsafe gunhandling, not for shooting during a reload.

Further:

“If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster” or “If Clear, Cylinder Closed, Holster” for revolvers only – After issuance of this command, the competitor is prohibited from firing (see Rule 10.4.3). (Emphasis mine again)

The competitor is authorized to shoot until this command is given.

10.4.3's prohibitions at the beginning or the end of a COF only apply between "Make Ready" and the beep (beginning) and "If you are finished" and "If clear, hammer down and holster" (end).

I think I see what you're saying...that "unloading" doesn't actually apply until the RO gives the ULSC command.

My assumption was that 'unloading' could apply at any time during the CoF since the definition doesn't limit it to only happening after ULSC

I think that approach makes sense given the description of ULSC and the description of if clear, Hammer down & holster part. Although, the wording is slightly different between IPSc/USPSA, both rulebooks point back to 10.4.3 if a shot is fired after if clear, hammer down. USPSA uses 10.4.3 to prevent a competitor from continuing after if clera, hammer down and holster whereas IPSC uses 10.6.1 - USC. In either case, it makes sense that 10.4.3 only applies after if clear, hammer down and holster since that description refences back to 10.4.3 if a shot goes off.

Would the answer be different if he had given the ULSC command? Given that receiving the command doesn't prevent a competitor from continuing to shoot?

No, unloading is different. There are separate definitions for loading, reloading, and unloading in the glossary.

Loading ............................The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to fire. (p. 58)

Reloading .........................The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm. The reload is not complete until the magazine/speed loader is fully inserted and the firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed and ready to fire). (p. 59)

Unloading ....................... The removal of ammunition from a firearm. This action is completed when the firearm is empty of all ammunition and the magazine removed or cylinder opened and shown for inspection by a Range Officer. (p. 60)

Notice the nuances here. Unloading happens when the firearm is: 1) empty, 2) magazine removed/cylinder opened, AND 3) shown for inspection by the RO--which means it only happens at the end of a CoF. Because the competitor was not issued a range command, I don't think he's liable for the DQ for taking this shot.

The question comes up, that I haven't yet seen you adequately address--what if he decided to engage a target after dropping the magazine. He stopped on the course of fire. After the beep, unless he's issued a "Stop," he can take all of the safe and legal shots he wants, until he's given a command to "ULSC." That didn't happen here. He didn't deserve the DQ, in my not-so-humble.

BUT, I'd definitely counsel him on how to finish a course of fire--especially since he's new.

[Sarge]

You can still fire a shot after ULSC! You can not fire after given ICHDH.

[ChuckS]

You can still fire a shot after ULSC! You can not fire after given ICHDH.

Does the time count?

[ttownracer]

Thought provoking question. After reading circumstance mi initial thought was a DQ would apply since it was not a shot intended for a field target. But unless a penalty or DQ action can be reasonable administered in reference to an applicable rule, should have been reversed.

Looking forward to NROI feedback.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DavidSnethkamp]

I would certainly use the last shot fired time.

[frag316]

The standard text for a WSB is "Time stops with the last shot fired" or "time is audible," so, yeah, last shot fired time.

You can still fire a shot after ULSC! You can not fire after given ICHDH.

Absolutely, but that doesn't matter in this instance. But you can shoot until you present a clear firearm to the RO.

[D.Hayden]

I would certainly use the last shot fired time.

Has to be.. because he must have been still shooting the COF in this case..

[2MoreChains]

Rule 10.4.3 is a sub-rule of 10.4 which is about accidental discharges. 10.4 starts off with: A competitor who causes an accidental discharge must be stopped by a Range Offier as soon as possible. An accidental discharge is defined as follows: (then goes on to cite 10.4.1, 2, and 3.

Not being there makes it hard to judge, but based on what the OP described it sure does not sound like the shot fired by the competitor was an AD as the competitor deliberately fired that last round to clear the chamber, which IMO is not an accidental discharge in the first place.

So I don't think 10.4.3 applies here.

I seem to recall a few years ago at the UPSA MG Nationals there was some controversy over 'burning a round' from your shotgun into the berm so it was empty when abandoned in the dump box. I can't remember what the final ruling was, but to me as long as it was a deliberate act, shot stayed within the berms and not within 10' of the shooter I'm having a hard time saying that is a DQ-able offense under 10.4

[frag316]

Yeah, this. It's a pretty normal thing for MG shotgun guys. I think emptying the gun that way is dumb, especially in a pistol match, because of how the stage time works. However, if I ever had something like this happen, I'd just aim in the general direction of a target and claim a missed shot.

[alma]

I friend of mine just started competitive shooting and during his first event he was DQ'd, I believe wrongly, but what do I know. Here is what happened:

He finished the course of fire and before the RO uttered the words "If you are finished unload and show clear", he pulled his magazine and fired his last round downrange, further than 20 feet and in a safe direction, but not aimed at a target.

The RO asked him to stop and DQ'd him.

So what do you think? DQ or was he still completing the course of fire?

Tito

No DQ.

After the RO issues the "If you are finished unload and show clear (8.3.6)" command the shooter can still fire. If the RO gets to 8.3.7 "If you are clear, hammer down, holster (8.3.7)" then the shooter may not fire and doing so would be a DQ under 10.4.3.

In this example, just because it surprised the RO doesn't mean it was a DQable offense.

[alma]

The situation described by the OP doesn't indicate it was a make up shot....it wasn't fired at a target and I presume he wasn't looking at the sights (I wasn't there)

The defintions describe when unloading ends, but not when it starts....the OP mentioned he finished the stage and removed the magazine, which to me means he is unloading his gun. A shot fired during a reload or unloading is a DQ...

Had circumstances suggested that this was an aimed make up shot, I'd likely feel differently given that he is still going through the CoF....the circumstances don't suggest this is th

Other than during movement, where in the rules (USPSA handgun or multigun) does it say you must be shooting at a target or it's a DQ?

[aztecdriver]

My initial inclination is that the shooter was amped up after the stage and rushed through what needed to happen next. I've seen this before from new shooters where they were just a bit andrenalized and dropped the mag, forgot to rack the slide, pointed the gun down range and fired. They didn't INTEND to shoot the gun clear, but that's what they did.

That doesn't change the result.

10.4.3 does not apply. They had "removed" ammunition from the gun. They were not in the act of removing ammunition from the gun, if that were to have continued, they should have started to operate the slide and then fired. Instead they pointed the gun - in which case, unloading is now over. You can't change what the act of unloading is based on whether there was a target there or not - there's no definition for that. There is no difference in the act of unloading if there was a target to be shot or not.

Walk through it. Had 8.3.7 happened? The command hadn't been given. Did any of the conditions of 10.4 occur? 10.4.3 doesn't apply, you can contend it did and this has been argued ad naseum on here and I won't get back into that argument. It did not, therefore none of the conditions of 10.4 apply. The closest I can come up with is 10.5 - but what was unsafe about it? Let's say I have a jam in the middle of a stage. Can I strip the mag out, fire the stuck round into the berm and reload my gun and continue? I'd say yes, what's the difference here?

I'm not seeing a rule that says I can't fire a round into the berm. So again, what rule do we DQ under?

Calling a DQ because we don't understand how to adjudicate the rules and allowing someone to overrule us, whether it be an RM or arb committee is a disservice to the shooter. We need to do a better job with this. I'm welcome to be wrong with this, but someone is going to have to do a better explanation than this occurred during unloading. The closest I can see 10.4.3 applying is that it states that he was actually executing the "procedures under 8.3.7", but you are going to have to explain how it doesn't matter that the command wasn't given but the procedures were still applicable - which I can't get there.

[alma]

Until the RO issues the instruction, "if clear, hammer down, holster," you have not yet arrived at 8.3.7 so it is not a DQ.

[Nik Habicht]

The situation described by the OP doesn't indicate it was a make up shot....it wasn't fired at a target and I presume he wasn't looking at the sights (I wasn't there)

The defintions describe when unloading ends, but not when it starts....the OP mentioned he finished the stage and removed the magazine, which to me means he is unloading his gun. A shot fired during a reload or unloading is a DQ...

Had circumstances suggested that this was an aimed make up shot, I'd likely feel differently given that he is still going through the CoF....the circumstances don't suggest this is the case

Really kind of irrelevant. 10.4.3 is meant to apply if the gun goes off during manipulation. If the shooter strips the mag, then fires the gun, he's interrupted the process of unloading to fire another round. We have specific rules that dictate how to handle accidental discharges -- and the round striking downrange 20 feet away doesn't meet those DQ criteria either.......

[Nik Habicht]

Ok then...finish the stage, drop the mag, fire a make shot and get DQ'ed...You are not finished unloading the gun (you started unloading the firearm the split second you dropped the mag)...regardless of what your intentions are, make up shot or not, you did not complete the action of unloading your firearm once you started it, and fired a shot during the unloading process....You can't have it both ways...If you argue that you weren't in the process of unloading, then why did you pause for so long then drop your mag?

By your logic, in order to make up a shot after you drop the mag, you'd have to rack out the live round, insert a new mag, and rack in a new round....because you never finished unloading in the first place...

I know its contrary...which is why I would leave it up to the arb committee to decide. Has NROI ever dealt with this issue?

In my personal view, safety is paramount. If you're discharging rounds which do not fulfill a course objective solely because you are too lazy to properly unload a firearm, then I will let the MD and RM decide if the DQ is valid, but I will still issue it.

It was clearly addressed during the last Level 1 seminar I sat in on.....

[Nik Habicht]

You can still fire a shot after ULSC! You can not fire after given ICHDH.

Does the time count?

Yep -- the clock runs until the last shot fired.....

[lawboy]

Not reloading.

Not a DQ.

Not stupid.

It is unusual. I would not do it.

The shot does count for time.

RO was wrong.

[JohnRodriguez]

How many time as a RO have we emphasized the IF in "if you are finished" hoping that the shooter will take the hint that they left a target unshot in a stage? It's not a DQ. Hopefully the shooter learned that unloading a gun properly will safe money and time.

[Sarge]

How many time as a RO have we emphasized the IF in "if you are finished" hoping that the shooter will take the hint that they left a target unshot in a stage?

never. maybe, if it was a guys very first match. but still only a maybe. I never drop hints to experienced shooters.

[GrumpyOne]

How many time as a RO have we emphasized the IF in "if you are finished" hoping that the shooter will take the hint that they left a target unshot in a stage?

never. maybe, if it was a guys very first match. but still only a maybe. I never drop hints to experienced shooters.

Dropping that hint...couldn't that be construed as RO interference?

[Nik Habicht]

The real concern would be -- is every shooter on that stage getting the same benefit from every RO running shooters?

Since you probably can't guarantee that, the way to assure competitive equity is to just deliver the range commands as you would normally....

[TitoR]

I did not expect that this question would create this level of discussion, but I am glad it did. I am not that experienced in his game as I started shooting ipsc and 3 gun a 2 years ago. I do appreciate all the feedback and analysis presented. In my mind when the DQ was given, I thought something was off. But having gone through all the posts, it confirmed my suspicions. Thanks for the high level discussion and insights as to how this game works.

Tito