squib on a stage- stage dq, match dq, or reshoot?

[openclassterror]

We are having a little bit of a debate at our local club-level 3gun. As our rules currently read-

1-In the event of a malfunction, shooter may try to clear the failure and continue the course of fire.

A- If malfunction requires tools to repair, shooter may either take current score with penalties for remaining targets not engaged, or attempt repair and re-shoot the stage if time allows.

B- If malfunction cannot be repaired, shooter may substitute another weapon that meets their division requirements, subject to approval of the chief RO.

The main reason for this rule was that many of the competitors early on in the clubs existence had shotgun issues almost every match. Broken parts, double feeds, etc. Rule was adopted by a majority vote at our monthly meeting. Shotgun problems have mostly gone away as competitors found more suitable platforms for the sport.

New issue is this- According to this rule, a squib in the barrel requires a tool to remove. Therefore the shooter gets to go fix it and re-shoot. I have some concerns about this as a gunsmith because there is in my experience usually at least one other over/ undercharged case in the same lot of ammo (assuming reloads). I have seen numerous firearms DESTROYED when a squib makes it far enough into the barrel to allow a subsequent round to chamber and fire. Not all of our ROs have the experience and/or presence of mind to recognize a squib and stop a shooter from continuing. Everyone in the club agrees that if a pistol ruptures a case or fires out of battery and parts blow off, that is it for the day, fixable with tools or not. I feel that a squib is an indicator of an ammunition problem with a high probability of recurring. Now I must admit in 20+ years of reloading I have never had a squib, so I don't have the same fear of not getting to finish the match that the guys with a squib every other month have. When this was discussed at our last meeting, rule was revised to the effect that one squib was OK, 2 squibs in the same match means go home. I was the lone dissenting figure, but as club president I can only vote to break a tie. I am concerned that sooner or later this policy will result in a catastrophic failure, whereas if a DQ is issued either reloading practices will improve or the main offenders will get tired of losing their 20 bucks and quit coming. Thoughts?

[ericm]

Your title asks a question different than that of your post.....

.....and your club rules sound complex vis a vis squibs.....

To answer your Title question, at all clubs I shoot at, if a suspected squib occurs AND the shooter is stopped by the RO, AND it is shown that it was not a squib (i.e. bullet NOT in barrel), the shooter gets a reshoot. IF the squib DOES exist, the shooter is scored to that point (No stage DQ, no match DQ) AND the shooter may clear the squib SAFELY before the next stage.

If the shooter stops himself due to a suspected squib, he DOES NOT get a reshoot, squib or not, and the shooter is scored to that point (No stage DQ, no match DQ) AND the shooter may clear the squib SAFELY before the next stage.

If the RO and shooter do not pick up on the squib, then possibly Kaboom.....

.....which, I think, answers your questions about self-limiting behavior and practices concerning reloading.

ericm

[ziebart]

+1 on ericm's post as it basically mirrors USPSA rules on it which are good rules. If there are people that have bad ammo they can have their ammo withdrawn per USPSA rules, but I have never seen that happen. I would advise the RO to stand back from these shooters and let them blow their equipment up if they are getting several squibs a month. I feel it is probably the only way they will learn. That or if the club feels strongly enough about it have them banned for unsafe firearms handling.

That said, if a competitor's gun malfunctions for whatever reason they should be allowed to safely abandon it in the dump barrel and continue the COF with any remaining firearm per the stage briefing. Of course this does not work if it was a 1 gun stage or if it was the last gun on the stage.

[Shaky Dave]

Eric has the right approach.If you allow people to reshoot because their ammo sucks,they don't learn anything.Then they become a hazard to themselves and others.

[Doug H.]

If you suspect a squib(low report, gun doesn't cycle, a little smoke from the chamber) stop them immediately! I have seen squibs shot out but you may not be so lucky. Worst case could be flying gun part shrapnel. Better to give a reshoot than take the chance. More than half the people I have stopped for squibs did not realize they had one and were trying to get the gun back in action

You probably need to write this into your rules.

Doug

[Sarge]

I don't shoot 3 gun, let alone at your club, but it is worth mentioning that a squib does not always indicate poor reloading skills. Sometimes the powder just fails to light off and that certainly is not a reloaders fault.

I have never had a squib either and I have probably shot 25k of my reloads in 4-5 year span. If I were to have a squib today it could in fact be called a fluke. Sure, somewhere along the line I must have done something wrong, ONCE IN 20,000 PULLS OF THE HANDLE. But if I had two in the same match then something is wrong and I would withdraw the ammo batch and shoot it in practice. You would not have to DQ me or otherwise send me home as I would call it quits and just run the timer for the squad the rest of the day.

I have also been ROing for 4 years or so and I have seen a number of squibs, mostly from newer shooters who are still trying to work the bugs out of the whole process. But every now and then a very experienced and accomplished shooter will pull the trigger and "pop".

A single squib from a shooter is not anything to get worked up about. If the same guy has one every match, then maybe it's time to take a different approach .

[openclassterror]

I don't have any concerns about the "one time in 5 years" squib. It is the guys that have one almost every match that worry me. Not everybody is conscientious enough to withdraw on their own after a couple squibs on the same day. The main issue is the application of a rule that was adopted for another purpose to mean you can keep squibbing and reshooting repeatedly. I like the idea of just taking the score at the point of the stoppage and giving them time to fix it before the next stage, with no allowance for reshoot. Hopefully the ding on the score is enough to make a difference in reloading practices. I will keep a log of failures over the next couple matches and bring it back up after I print out the USPSA rules.

Sooner or later, somebody is gonna get hurt. We already had the grips and magazine blow off of one gun, and ammo has not improved in light of it. I don't want an amputation to happen at our range.

[alma]

+1 on ericm's post as it basically mirrors USPSA rules on it which are good rules. If there are people that have bad ammo they can have their ammo withdrawn per USPSA rules, but I have never seen that happen. I would advise the RO to stand back from these shooters and let them blow their equipment up if they are getting several squibs a month. I feel it is probably the only way they will learn. That or if the club feels strongly enough about it have them banned for unsafe firearms handling.

That said, if a competitor's gun malfunctions for whatever reason they should be allowed to safely abandon it in the dump barrel and continue the COF with any remaining firearm per the stage briefing. Of course this does not work if it was a 1 gun stage or if it was the last gun on the stage.

I have seen this in USPSA. After the second or third squib in a match we pulled the ammo.

[LoganbillJ]

This may be another thread topic but I am curious as to why a squib, a malfunction most likely caused by the shooters poor reloading, constitutes a reshoot.

[ChuckS]

This may be another thread topic but I am curious as to why a squib, a malfunction most likely caused by the shooters poor reloading, constitutes a reshoot.

In USPSA, if the RO calls stop for a suspected squib and there is nothing in the barrel, the shooter gets a reshoot. If there is a bullet in the barrel, the shooter is scored as shot with all the remaining misses and penalties. Other folks can talk about other rule sets.

[LoganbillJ]

Makes sense. Thanks for the clarification. Guess I wasn't thinking of the possibility of being stopped without an actual blockage.

[High Lord Gomer]

5.5.5 Any ammunition deemed unsafe by a Range Officer must be immedi-ately withdrawn from the match.

Most ROs would declare the ammunition unsafe after the second squib. If it is a repeat offender, I could see doing so after the first one.

[MarkCO]

5.5.5 Any ammunition deemed unsafe by a Range Officer must be immedi-ately withdrawn from the match.

Most ROs would declare the ammunition unsafe after the second squib. If it is a repeat offender, I could see doing so after the first one.

I would not say most, but your answer SHOULD be what happens.

As for the original question...If their ammo does not work, or their guns does not run, they get to suck up the penalties. Letting people with problems vote on the rules creates lots of problems IMHO and creates potential liability I would want absolutely no part of. I honestly would not shoot at a club that had voted in such a rule.

[StarvinPilgrim]

I've only seen two separate shooters have a squib in a match. Both were stopped by the RO, squib cleared and allowed a reshoot. I believe 1 is allowable but if there's a second you need to remove yourself from competition & reevaluate your reloading skills.

[Sarge]

I've only seen two separate shooters have a squib in a match. Both were stopped by the RO, squib cleared and allowed a reshoot. .

Exactly the opposite of what the rule book for USPSA says!

[StarvinPilgrim]

I've only seen two separate shooters have a squib in a match. Both were stopped by the RO, squib cleared and allowed a reshoot. .

Exactly the opposite of what the rule book for USPSA says!

Just passing along what I saw. They both happened to be at the same club though.

[Finbox]

Devils advocate, Let's say a shooter has $800 tied up in a major match, and thinks he's got a squib in his AR, RO did not stop him.

Is it possible to communicate this to the RO clear the weapon slide bolt out look down barrel under the clock?

Or even clear weapon, lock slide and look down muzzle end of pistol for squib?

Edited April 21, 2014 by Finbox

[MarkCO]

Devils advocate, Let's say a shooter has $800 tied up in a major match, and thinks he's got a squib in his AR, RO did not stop him.

Is it possible to communicate this to the RO clear the weapon slide bolt out look down barrel under the clock?

Or even clear weapon, lock slide and look down muzzle end of pistol for squib?

Yep. I have had two people tell me, on the clock that they had a squib in their AR. I answered both the same..."Well you better check" one pulled a pin and checked. The other went back to shooting. There was no squib in either and I believe both were angling for a re-shoot which they did not get. If I believed they had a squib, I would have stopped them.

On a pistol, it is more expedient to lock the slide open and drop a pebble through the barrel...seen that one in person too. You put your hand or face in front of a barrel while it is in the firearm, instant DQ from me.

[Langenator]

Devils advocate, Let's say a shooter has $800 tied up in a major match, and thinks he's got a squib in his AR, RO did not stop him.

Is it possible to communicate this to the RO clear the weapon slide bolt out look down barrel under the clock?

Or even clear weapon, lock slide and look down muzzle end of pistol for squib?

Yep. I have had two people tell me, on the clock that they had a squib in their AR. I answered both the same..."Well you better check" one pulled a pin and checked. The other went back to shooting. There was no squib in either and I believe both were angling for a re-shoot which they did not get. If I believed they had a squib, I would have stopped them.

On a pistol, it is more expedient to lock the slide open and drop a pebble through the barrel...seen that one in person too. You put your hand or face in front of a barrel while it is in the firearm, instant DQ from me.

Interesting technique I hadn't thought of. I may start carrying a few BBs in my pocket, just in case. (I've never had a squib at a match. The one squib I have had, the bullet didn't get far enough down the barrel to allow the next round to chamber, so it was pretty obvious.)

[jriggs]

to answer your question....as to DQ or re-shoot??

we've all made mistakes reloading...it just happens sometimes...but most of us scare the shit out of ourselves and never do it again...some people never learn though and with that in mind...I'd say if someone experiences a squib...then I'd let them proceed on and shoot. but make note of the person's name, the weapon that threw the squib and when/where it happened....and then get a squib Log book and enter that info into it.

for example,

John Doe / 1-1-14 / stage 4 / 5.56 rifle squib

if halfway through the season you've had 6 squibs (which would be an insane amount) and out of those 6, four of them belonged to one individual...it's time to have a talk with that person about their reloading techniques maybe leave some room in your by-laws to suspend a person's ability to compete at your facility until they've done something to correct and fix the problem and can show that they are in fact safe to allow to shoot again. some guys are not going to like a rule like that..but people need to learn the hard way...instead of the really hard way.

just an idea...

[openclassterror]

Well, no squibs this month, but same pistol/ operator combo had about 50% Failure To Eject malfs. Supposedly factory load equivalent powder charges, but sounded like a 22 mag instead of a 9mm. We shall see.........

[MarkCO]

Well, no squibs this month, but same pistol/ operator combo had about 50% Failure To Eject malfs. Supposedly factory load equivalent powder charges, but sounded like a 22 mag instead of a 9mm. We shall see.........

Drag out the Chrono next month.

[Outbreak]

I've only seen two separate shooters have a squib in a match. Both were stopped by the RO, squib cleared and allowed a reshoot. I believe 1 is allowable but if there's a second you need to remove yourself from competition & reevaluate your reloading skills.

I had my one and only squib (so far) at a club match. I already had a fresh mag in the gun before I processed the "stop" call. Sure enough, it was blocked. I thanked the RO profusely, we cleared it and I went to reload mags. I was really surprised when they called my name as the last shooter on the stage, and thanked the RO again for letting me reshoot. That's the only squib in probably 10,000rds loaded on my 650.