The importance of the prize table

[El Guapo]

Over the last year I have heard a number of people talking about an impending decline in the quality of prize tables. These people state that the sponsors aren't getting enough return on investment and that less bountiful prize tables are imminent. So my question is "How important is the prize table?" My personal answer is not very important at all. The trend lately is to 3 day matches costing close to three hundred dollars to to shoot with large prize tables. I would rather see prize tables go by the wayside and the winners receive trophies if it meant lower match fees and two or even one day matches. Prize table items could then be raffled off to help offset the cost of lower match fees. I would like to know how the rest of you feel about both the prize table, it's distribution and the number of days a match should be.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Ditto. I agree.

[Lifeislarge]

No way. Why do you think Cracker Jack is the number one selling confectionery in the history of the world... PRIZES!!!

[C-Money]

I think we need to make sure riff-raff can't play 3-gun and keep high entry fees, majestic prize tables, and long-ass matches the norm.

[Lead-Head]

Prize tables are fine. They are one of the draws of shooting a major. Several match directors spend a lot if time growing the table and I appreciate their efforts.

However, stage planning and design are what I think makes a good match. Match staff are also a huge part of success. I cannot imagine anyone saying after a match " well the stages sucked and the ROs did not know what they were doing, but the prize table was sick!, so It was a great match!"

I like the idea of lower match entries and trophies for the winners, or plaques. Those from SMMG I saw on FB looked cool. A prize table is great if you can swing it as an MD, but not the reason I shoot 3 gun.

Edited April 13, 2014 by Lead-Head

[LoganbillJ]

Personally, I see a prize table as an extra perk. Its not necessary, I shoot 3 gun because I enjoy shooting. I enjoy the comradery and competitiveness of fellow shooters. I attend matches that have good stage layouts and are challenging to shoot. Adding prizes to the mix is icing on the cake, but they are not the reason I shoot. My performance or lack there of, is enough of a prize.

[The Donald]

I'm not excited about prize tables. Look at the stuff people sell here that they don't need that they won on a prize table. This is where IDPA has their act together, the raffle off the prizes so even the back of the pack shooters have a chance. It's the back of the pack shooters that make up most of the shooters at a match AND buy most of the equipment.

The equipment manufacturers would loose about 2/3's of their sales if those that aren't the top tier shooters dropped the sport and went off and did something else.

3 day matches of 10-12 stages that go from 8 in the morning to 7 at night just gets to be too long sitting around for hours doing nothing. Most of the reason for this is poor stage planning and poorly trained S.O.'s. I feel if I plan a stage it should be well enough written out that if I was not able to be asked a single question a good, experienced S.O. could figure out how to set it up without ant input.

This goes for par times, if over half the average shooters time out (this is without a gun going down or other malfunction) the stages are too complicated or the par time too short. This is especially true when most of the real good shooter's time are within 10-15 seconds of the par time.

[gose]

I dont really care if there is a prize table or not, if the match is good, I'll shoot it either way.

However, if there is a prize table and its by raffle and not by finish, I wont go, since prize table raffles are silly and unamerican

If you want a better prize, practice.

I like three day matches. Once I've hauled all my crap and ass to some remote godforsaken location, I might as well stay a few days.

[urikagold]

I am all for order of finish prize tables. When I finish well enough to pick so something up I either upgrade my own kit or sell the stuff to shooting buddies. The sales help me offset my match costs. Entry fees are only one part of it. Travel expenses are usually much more.

I have been to shoots that are raffle type matches. The good shooters don't want to attend because they arent rewarded for their good shooting. I know that the raffle type prize tables are good for some shooters. Take the Pro Am for example. The amateur prize table is a raffle. There have been at least 200 entries every year except maybe the first one. If I were to finish in the top 5 out of 200+ shooters I would want to walk away with something good off the prize table that reflected that. With a raffle I stand a chance of walking away with some Beaver Lube and a t-shirt for my efforts. Doesn't seem fair to me.

Raffle type prize tables may have a place at small matches, but not at majors.

[El Guapo]

When I spoke about a raffle in the original post I was talking about taking the ten or so rifles or other high dollar prizes that are given by sponsors and actually selling raffle tickets for each item to defray the cost and getting rid of the prize table altogether.

[ericm]

Alright El Guapo, (and everyone who agrees with him) the matches you seek already exist in far greater quantity than the EVIL, INTERMINABLY LONG, MAJOR 3 gun matches with the EVIL bourgeoisie prize tables you eschew.

They are called club matches.

They require a modest entry fee, return (usually) nothing, require you to set up. tear down, and work (unless you are "one of those guys")

Attend them and don't attend major matches.

ericm

[LoganbillJ]

I do not agree with random draw prize tables. If you want a prize work to get yourself one. The people who finish ahead of you did for a reason. They sacrificed time and money to get where they are. Who cares what they do with the prize they won. As gose stated, the whole everybody wins crap is un-American and is the reason our country is in its current state.

[BobS761]

I don't shoot for prizes, and yes, I'm mainly a club match guy except for the odd major I can swing. I think I'm like the majority of shooters at a major, shooting for fun, friends, and the experience. I'm not going to win a gun, I'm never going to be top 5%. I could, if I wanted to, but I just don't have the drive, and there are other things more important to me. As for prize table, random is nice, but I'm not all that lucky, and didn't attend for the "chance" to win a gun. But if the MD wants a random table, fine. Personally, I think if you win, you get top pick. And if you are in an amateur division, if you win and get top pick, you get to be a pro for next years match. JMO, and really I don't have a dog in the fight. If you are a pro, I do believe you should be rewarded for your performance. My compromise would be to have pro and amateur divisions at major matches, (there may be already but only have exprience at one), pro's pick order of finish, top X% of amateurs pick order of finish with a ticket to that particular events pro ranks next year, and the rest of the amateurs get a random draw. That way, those that are driven, can be rewarded, and those that just enjoy the sport have a shot at something cool, too. But, like I said, I'm there for the fun, and really don't care either way.

[El Guapo]

Alright El Guapo, (and everyone who agrees with him) the matches you seek already exist in far greater quantity than the EVIL, INTERMINABLY LONG, MAJOR 3 gun matches with the EVIL bourgeoisie prize tables you eschew.

They are called club matches.

They require a modest entry fee, return (usually) nothing, require you to set up. tear down, and work (unless you are "one of those guys")

Attend them and don't attend major matches.

ericm

I believe you missed my point. My post is asking about how important the prize table is to your decision on whether to shoot a match or not based on the prize table. I'm not advocating every math go to a random draw. I'm just bouncing ideas off you guys because I'm contemplating a state level match and don't want to be bothered with putting together an elaborate prize table. So I was thinking trophies and a couple random prizes.

As for Ericm you can mind your own business as to what matches as I shoot. I md a monthly match and RO at least three majors a year. This thread is for a civil discussion not for you to get all whiney and butt hurt.

[ericm]

LOL......you sure told me off....

The above should have been your original post, what with your experience and all....

ericm

[Jeff F]

Random draw does not work in my book. If your not good enough to win a prize or the prize you want hen practice. If you want a less expensive match shoot a club match

The big matches with prize tables are like that for a reason

[ziebart]

If you are planning a state level match you need to have some sort of reward if you want to draw the top guys in. If not then many may not travel far as the prizes won can help defray the cost of the match or travel expenses. If you do not want to draw people from farther than 5 hours and hotels are cheap in your area and the match is known as a quality match then it is possible to bring people.

Time/distance/costs are all relative to the area and how much competitions there are. A match may attract people from farther away in the upper midwest plains states because there are not many matches up there. I do not know your situation.

[kurtm]

For a State level match, moderate entry fee, plaques and cash payback. Easy!

I must admit after re reading all of this that club matches do indeed answer the O.P. and others. No prize table to worry about from any angle, very moderate cost. Depending on your area you can shoot 2-3 a month for less than the gas money to get to a "major", sleep in your own bed, and at the end of the month you have shot just as many stages as an expensive Major.

I personally like big prize tables as when I travel it makes the match seem more like a large gala event, instead of just driving for a long way to shoot stages I could and do set up for my local match. I appreciate each and every thing I win and always send thank yous.. did anyone send Seekins a thank you for the mag release button in your sign in Pac at SMM3-Gun? I sure did. and that wasn't even on the prise table, same with Kafka cool ties.

Edited April 14, 2014 by kurtm

[co-exprs]

Thank you for the reminder Kurt... Sending out thank you notes today.

[Bryan 45]

I am very appreciative of all the sponsors that support 3 gun through their products or services towards prize tables- especially when it's someone like Armalite or HK who donated gear expressedly for the RO drawing.

But prize table takes a back seat to challenging stages, high round counts, location, good company, and friendly, competent range staff.

[Glock3422]

If matches cost less without prize tables, It wouldn't hurt my feelings.

If prize tables didn't have hidden prizes in envelopes "Wink", that would be better.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Glock3422

[Benelli Chick]

Most matches won't be able to "cost less" with no prize table.

Don't spend that much of my budget on prizes!

Still have RO costs (food, rooms, etc.) Still have targets, bathrooms, admin, paper work, blah, blah....it goes on!

Dedicated RO's are expensive and for a big match, in order to get any kind of consistency, you need to have dedicated RO's!!

That's the biggest difference in costs for a big vs. your "local."

Just wanted to be sure you understand that "Big" matches won't be much/if any cheaper with no prize table.

Denise

[Glock3422]

Most matches won't be able to "cost less" with no prize table.

Don't spend that much of my budget on prizes!

Still have RO costs (food, rooms, etc.) Still have targets, bathrooms, admin, paper work, blah, blah....it goes on!

Dedicated RO's are expensive and for a big match, in order to get any kind of consistency, you need to have dedicated RO's!!

That's the biggest difference in costs for a big vs. your "local."

Just wanted to be sure you understand that "Big" matches won't be much/if any cheaper with no prize table.

Denise

Understood, completely.

[steviesterno]

I don't see a problem with prize tables. It gives everyone a chance to see how they did, and possibly recoup or pick up something from a brand they never would have. I'm a solid local club shooter, but running with the big dogs put me way back a few years ago. So i busted hump, actually started doing cardio and dry fire, and advanced my place the next year. I still lost to the pros, and I don't mind. But I did win an Aimpoint I would have never plunked down the $500 for, and now I know I like them and they are good product, so I have another on the way.

It also shows us which companies support us. I would buy an STI over a similar gun, because STI puts money back into the sport, supports even mediocre shooters, and helps with their product. I've sunk way more money into 3 gun than I'm even willing to try and figure out (I would cry) and have an Aimpoint on my rifle, streamlight on my HD pistol, and a couple of range bags and cleaning kits in the shop. It helps defray only a tiny bit of the cost.

for those of you trying to do the math, I'm sure Jesse will post his 2013 spreadsheet. If i remember correctly, he's DOWN $1000 or so for the year, despite beating us pretty solidly at a number of matches.

A prize table is a good draw to the amateur. If I wanted a random chance to get a gun, I would enter one of the piles of Firehouse and gun club Raffles (which I still do).

Or hell, shoot GSSF. just by joining you get a solid discount on a new Glock. something like 1/3 people who shot the last GSSF I was at walked away with a new pistol. I liked my free one so much I even broke my No-Glock_Ever rule and I'm shopping for more, since I like them and they support us shooters

[Doug H.]

Most matches won't be able to "cost less" with no prize table.

Don't spend that much of my budget on prizes!

Still have RO costs (food, rooms, etc.) Still have targets, bathrooms, admin, paper work, blah, blah....it goes on!

Dedicated RO's are expensive and for a big match, in order to get any kind of consistency, you need to have dedicated RO's!!

That's the biggest difference in costs for a big vs. your "local."

Just wanted to be sure you understand that "Big" matches won't be much/if any cheaper with no prize table.

Denise

Well said, most folks have no idea how much it takes to put on big match. Shooters expect a lot more from a big match than a club match. I wonder if they understand how much work goes into a great prize table, not cash but hours of correspondence. Relationships create a prize table, not shooters match fees.

Doug